Paradox Interactive (the Crusader Kings people, not the Conan/Mutant Chronicles ones) buy the White Wolf properties [Merged x10]

[Mr Gone]

I assume that any new edition is going to change the system, the question being only to what degree such changes will be made.

I certainly can't make any value judgements regarding differing systems, but I will say that I am interested in seeing a new system for WoD games if for no other reason than because I already have two that work well enough (CofD and the 20th anniversary versions) but might like something that needs fewer dice and has less varying target numbers.

Of course, with major alteration to the system there is a risk that the end result doesn't have the right feeling. Though if I am being honest, at first I didn't think that the old Vampire system (specifically V:tM revised, my first experience of the WoD) gave a feeling that fit the setting (the system feeling like a super-hero game, while the setting professed no such theme) - but after months of play, I started to see the two working in concert (because nothing creates a more hopeless feeling than learning that the character which seems super-heroicly proportioned compared to yourself is nothing but prey for fiercer beings and a pawn in someone else's game).

I'm totally with you...basically. The ST system has been such a part of my gaming life, that while I don't mind tweaks(ala NWoD or the 20th anniversary edition stuff), I'm afraid they're going to drastically overhaul it, which would kind of take me out of it. If that makes sense...

I guess what I'm saying is, they want to update it further(like NWoD did), then I'd be ok with it. But a drastic system overhaul might ruin it for me. That said, I have gamed in years at this point, so it really doesn't matter if I like it or not. Just my knee jerk reaction.

[Drake]

Does this mean the new White Wolf will be changing the system?

I assume that any new edition is going to change the system, the question being only to what degree such changes will be made.

I certainly can't make any value judgements regarding differing systems, but I will say that I am interested in seeing a new system for WoD games if for no other reason than because I already have two that work well enough (CofD and the 20th anniversary versions) but might like something that needs fewer dice and has less varying target numbers.

Of course, with major alteration to the system there is a risk that the end result doesn't have the right feeling. Though if I am being honest, at first I didn't think that the old Vampire system (specifically V:tM revised, my first experience of the WoD) gave a feeling that fit the setting (the system feeling like a super-hero game, while the setting professed no such theme) - but after months of play, I started to see the two working in concert (because nothing creates a more hopeless feeling than learning that the character which seems super-heroicly proportioned compared to yourself is nothing but prey for fiercer beings and a pawn in someone else's game).

[Mr Gone]

Just to slightly weigh in...that guys comments were kind of off putting to me as a Classic WoD fan, and as someone who can appreciate the NWoD. Plus, he didn't come off as very respectful to those who have been working hard on NWoD(now C of D I guess).

The one thing in his statement that really bothered me was this:

Onyx Path also have a license to produce nostalgia books for the classic WoD settings. These are official but set in the same nebulous ”eternal nineties”, using the old-school buckets-of-dice-system featured in the original lines. Future editions will move the setting, mythos, metaplot and mechanics almost 15 years forward into present day.

Does this mean the new White Wolf will be changing the system?

[Camilla]

Well it's been a long time overdue that we finally do a literary comparison of the two, without the unnecessary and unhelpful insulting of any specific line and its fans.

I have always wanted someone to do a Let's Read of the 1e Requiem corebook.

[stylanski]

To be honest, Martin Ericsson's comments regarding his vision for Old World of Darkness/One World of Darkness has really put me off of his product. To be honest, I think I'm done with oWoD and will stick to nWoD from now on. I always preferred nWoD/CofD to oWoD, although I do like some things about oWoD as well.

Although I do look forward to this thread comparing, contrasting, and analyzing oWoD and nWoD/CofD and the differences between them. I'll be there.

Well it's been a long time overdue that we finally do a literary comparison of the two, without the unnecessary and unhelpful insulting of any specific line and its fans.

[Camilla]

To be honest, Martin Ericsson's comments regarding his vision for Old World of Darkness/One World of Darkness has really put me off of his product. To be honest, I think I'm done with oWoD and will stick to nWoD from now on. I always preferred nWoD/CofD to oWoD, although I do like some things about oWoD as well.

Although I do look forward to this thread comparing, contrasting, and analyzing oWoD and nWoD/CofD and the differences between them. I'll be there.

[Charlaquin]

I think there really is something to it... CoD was written more as a game, while the WoD always had a soapbox to stand on and statements to make about the world and human condition. If you continue this topic, I'd love to hear more, so do leave a link where you'll be continuing.

Yeah sorry, stuff came up last night. I'll try to post a topic after I get home from work today.

[Asmodai]

Hmm... Might just do some research on what, right now, is just a huge hunch, and start a new thread.

The long and the short of it is that CofD is very humanistic and focuses around concrete needs, not ideologies, theories (including scientific ones), or conspiracies. For example, in VtR, each covenant seems to serve a need for Vampires and at the same time brings elements over from some obscure faction or group of VtM. At first glance, this appears realistic. But think about inequality, racism, secret "free trade" treaties. Do they really fulfill a need on behalf of the elites? No, we're told we don't understand economics or the benefits that are always about to come. If you take the gothic-punk element as atmospheric, and see behind the metaphor in almost a platonic analysis of the form behind the shadow presented in the game, especially 1st ed Masquerade, is a work of art. Requiem is just fun (perhaps more fun than Masquerade at times) and easy to plan chronicles around.

Mage feels pretty much the same. Outside the concepts of hubris and gnosticism, Awakening is irrelevant. Each Atlantean order serves a need of the Pentacle, something everyone can agree that it should be someone's job. Yet Ascension deals with universal, timeless issues and concepts. Reality. Technology and its obscure origins as intertwined with magic, religion, philosophy and the occult (and the recent interest in Quantum physics has definitely helped the game's appeal). Awakening was written by people who read Ascension (to know they made something different) and researched some occult texts. Ascension feels written by almost-practitioners, as every real-life magical tradition has a counterpart within the game.

That's the hot selling point for WoD for me, that it takes almost everything anyone's ever wondered if it could be true, assumes it is, and throws it into the pit.

And then there's the whole issue that CofD tried too hard to fix people's complaints with WoD, and thus was meta to an extent.

I think there really is something to it... CoD was written more as a game, while the WoD always had a soapbox to stand on and statements to make about the world and human condition. If you continue this topic, I'd love to hear more, so do leave a link where you'll be continuing.

[The young man in the cafe]

Regarding the werewolves, I guess he missed the point that the Impergium is what drove humanity right into the waiting arms of the Wyrm, and is practically the direct reason for their being in the position of fighting a losing battle in the first place. Every fucking time they resorted to killing their non Wyrm opponents they fed their enemy and made it stronger.

I agreed with you about the Impergium until I realized that that plot thread will probably be resolved in the metaplot by an adventure where someone (meaning the PCs) manages to prevent a 2nd Impergium, perhaps by making a Patrick Stewart Speech. I would give bonus EXP to a player who gave such a speech as means of avoiding a 2nd impergium, as opposed to beating the tar out of the red talon leader.

Also, based on what little detail on the idea I found in the gamma slice of the MET werewolf (which Martin is involved with), the whole 2nd impergium idea seems to be something that the Red Talons and a few of their allies among other tribes' lupus are pushing, not the garou nation as a whole. In fact, it seems the garou nation has split in half over what role human technology and the weaver's inventions can play in saving Gaia and I am willing to bet that the Concordat of Stars (the pro weaver faction) is against the idea of a 2nd impergium

[Charlaquin]

Hmm... Might just do some research on what, right now, is just a huge hunch, and start a new thread.

The long and the short of it is that CofD is very humanistic and focuses around concrete needs, not ideologies, theories (including scientific ones), or conspiracies. For example, in VtR, each covenant seems to serve a need for Vampires and at the same time brings elements over from some obscure faction or group of VtM. At first glance, this appears realistic. But think about inequality, racism, secret "free trade" treaties. Do they really fulfill a need on behalf of the elites? No, we're told we don't understand economics or the benefits that are always about to come. If you take the gothic-punk element as atmospheric, and see behind the metaphor in almost a platonic analysis of the form behind the shadow presented in the game, especially 1st ed Masquerade, is a work of art. Requiem is just fun (perhaps more fun than Masquerade at times) and easy to plan chronicles around.

Mage feels pretty much the same. Outside the concepts of hubris and gnosticism, Awakening is irrelevant. Each Atlantean order serves a need of the Pentacle, something everyone can agree that it should be someone's job. Yet Ascension deals with universal, timeless issues and concepts. Reality. Technology and its obscure origins as intertwined with magic, religion, philosophy and the occult (and the recent interest in Quantum physics has definitely helped the game's appeal). Awakening was written by people who read Ascension (to know they made something different) and researched some occult texts. Ascension feels written by almost-practitioners, as every real-life magical tradition has a counterpart within the game.

That's the hot selling point for WoD for me, that it takes almost everything anyone's ever wondered if it could be true, assumes it is, and throws it into the pit.

And then there's the whole issue that CofD tried too hard to fix people's complaints with WoD, and thus was meta to an extent.

Yeah, I think this line of discussion is worth having its own thread, complete with a disclaimer to refrain from "edition" warring. I'll start a topic for that in a little bit here, if you don't beat me to it.

[stylanski]

Huh. It's interesting that you say that because I've always felt CofD was the more realistic, in the sense that WoD was set in an alternate universe that was like ours, but darker, more sinister, where global supernatural conspiracies pulling everyone's strings. Whereas CofD is set in a universe that more closely resembles our own, with the key difference being that monsters are hiding in plain sight, relying on the fact that live people ignore the strange and unusual. That's not a knock against either game, I always figured people who prefer WoD usually do so because they enjoy the stylized gothic punk alternate reality that the game presents over the more subdued style of CofD and vise versa. So it's interesting to see someone who feels the opposite, that they prefer WoD for its realism. This is a pretty big deviation from the topic, but something I would love to discuss further if there is enough interest to start a new thread for it.

Hmm... Might just do some research on what, right now, is just a huge hunch, and start a new thread.

The long and the short of it is that CofD is very humanistic and focuses around concrete needs, not ideologies, theories (including scientific ones), or conspiracies. For example, in VtR, each covenant seems to serve a need for Vampires and at the same time brings elements over from some obscure faction or group of VtM. At first glance, this appears realistic. But think about inequality, racism, secret "free trade" treaties. Do they really fulfill a need on behalf of the elites? No, we're told we don't understand economics or the benefits that are always about to come. If you take the gothic-punk element as atmospheric, and see behind the metaphor in almost a platonic analysis of the form behind the shadow presented in the game, especially 1st ed Masquerade, is a work of art. Requiem is just fun (perhaps more fun than Masquerade at times) and easy to plan chronicles around.

Mage feels pretty much the same. Outside the concepts of hubris and gnosticism, Awakening is irrelevant. Each Atlantean order serves a need of the Pentacle, something everyone can agree that it should be someone's job. Yet Ascension deals with universal, timeless issues and concepts. Reality. Technology and its obscure origins as intertwined with magic, religion, philosophy and the occult (and the recent interest in Quantum physics has definitely helped the game's appeal). Awakening was written by people who read Ascension (to know they made something different) and researched some occult texts. Ascension feels written by almost-practitioners, as every real-life magical tradition has a counterpart within the game.

That's the hot selling point for WoD for me, that it takes almost everything anyone's ever wondered if it could be true, assumes it is, and throws it into the pit.

And then there's the whole issue that CofD tried too hard to fix people's complaints with WoD, and thus was meta to an extent.

[Charlaquin]

I don't necessarily agree with him that the WoD lacks edginess nowadays, therefore this is why it sells badly. Though I'd rather take a sober view of the world than a romanticized (simply because of the "of Darkness" part).

To me, a more valid point that may have plagued CofD (and might have had something to do with sales) was that unlike the impression I got from writers for early WW, later writers are not so involved and passionate about what they write.

Meaning that a M:tAw writer will go as far as look up some magical practices and incorporate them in the game after giving them a suspicious read. Early WW gave me the impression that Ascension writers would actually practice some magick, get involved in the occult and mysticist communities, and then bring those experiences over to the written material.

Might just be me, but certain sourcebooks feel more realistic, which makes them scarier.

Huh. It's interesting that you say that because I've always felt CofD was the more realistic, in the sense that WoD was set in an alternate universe that was like ours, but darker, more sinister, where global supernatural conspiracies pulling everyone's strings. Whereas CofD is set in a universe that more closely resembles our own, with the key difference being that monsters are hiding in plain sight, relying on the fact that live people ignore the strange and unusual. That's not a knock against either game, I always figured people who prefer WoD usually do so because they enjoy the stylized gothic punk alternate reality that the game presents over the more subdued style of CofD and vise versa. So it's interesting to see someone who feels the opposite, that they prefer WoD for its realism. This is a pretty big deviation from the topic, but something I would love to discuss further if there is enough interest to start a new thread for it.

[stylanski]

I know it wasn't his intent to offend the writers and fans, but he did, and needs to understand the "how" as well as the "why" if he's going to be the public face of the company. He needs a marketing lesson on statement intent vs impact.

I don't necessarily agree with him that the WoD lacks edginess nowadays, therefore this is why it sells badly. Though I'd rather take a sober view of the world than a romanticized (simply because of the "of Darkness" part).

To me, a more valid point that may have plagued CofD (and might have had something to do with sales) was that unlike the impression I got from writers for early WW, later writers are not so involved and passionate about what they write.

Meaning that a M:tAw writer will go as far as look up some magical practices and incorporate them in the game after giving them a suspicious read. Early WW gave me the impression that Ascension writers would actually practice some magick, get involved in the occult and mysticist communities, and then bring those experiences over to the written material.

Might just be me, but certain sourcebooks feel more realistic, which makes them scarier.

[Fat Larry]

I doubt it. I'm sure Martin knew he'd be getting some Internet hate. He'd be getting it without stuff like this.

Possibly. I don't know. If I sort through his interviews, brash as they may be, and ignore the way he's been dealing out the info, to be honest with you I don't really see a problem with what's in store for us fans.

I like the future he's proposing for the WoD. I like WWP and Paradox giving a ton of attention to WoD videogames. I like the "One World of Darkness" teaser that was released. I like all of it. But I can understand people being frustrated with some of the things he says.

But again, how much of it is Martin being...Martin. And how much of it, is a language, culture and/or other issue where it may not all be as bad as some people think it is.

I'm extremely interested in seeing just what they plan on releasing in 2016. I guess it's only February, so still plenty of time. But it couldn't possibly be Vampire 4th Edition. Too soon, I'd say.

[Heavy Arms]

I doubt it. I'm sure Martin knew he'd be getting some Internet hate. He'd be getting it without stuff like this

As has already been discussed, is a major problem in how he's saying things. The whole acquisition of the WW IPs from CCP and the creation of a new WWP has be one long series of PR fails. It's been a cycle of, "new WWP does/says something that predictably gets a bunch of fans unease about things," followed by, "enough corrections/restatements/etc. get made to mollify people."

The problem with that, is eventually people don't get calmed down. People stop giving the interviews/public posts/etc. a bit less each time, until you've lost the ability to do anything but upset people with poorly worded statements.