3E Infernals - Change of Direction

[Kleptomania]

My thought is "shouldn't you have gone looking for an Abyssal thread if you were planning this kind of necromancy?"

More seriously, I'm very conflicted. To me, the idea of new Infernals being usually destructive (having been picked as living weapons by beings made of rage and hate and pain) makes sense, and the idea of a minority of them rising above that and finding empathy, rather than malice, in their past oppression is both cool and hopeful.

But I see other people saying that people from the underclass striving to change things... but actually being agents of Hell who only make everything worse kinda seems like new!Infernals would run the risk of turning into Breitbart Exalted, and I don't know that I can refute that.

I'll probably brood uncomfortably on it for a good long time, until either my feelings shake out or we get a more detailed version from the writers.

The 'but' there is a big assumption. Maybe an Infernal Exalt can be exactly what they claim to be? Like, Malfeas isn't necessarily an objectively 'evil' Hell and its Exalted agents, to the degree that they are 'agents', may not necessarily make things worse.

[Yzarc]

Alright, so I Spoke with a friend and from what my friend said that the contents of chapter 2 does not match the Charms. That is to say, the Chapter 2 builds them up to be one thing but the fluff from the charms is essentially 2E charms (Not mechanically) with a over emphasis on ED charms that gives a different impression of what Infernals are supposed to be.

Can any one comment?

[adambeyoncelowe]

Alright, so I Spoke with a friend and from what my friend said that the contents of chapter 2 does not match the Charms. That is to say, the Chapter 2 builds them up to be one thing but the fluff from the charms is essentially 2E charms (Not mechanically) with a over emphasis on ED charms that gives a different impression of what Infernals are supposed to be.

Can any one comment?

Many of the combat Charms are like 2e Ebon Dragon Charms, although there are some Adorjan Charms thrown in too (and in Athletics). As a Scourge in 2.5e with the Ebon Dragon as my second Yozi, I can replicate my previous character very well.

But I don't think that amounts to a contradiction of what ExEss Infernals are supposed to be. It reads to me very much like you can import your 2e Infernal concepts with minimal fuss, and that's a positive thing for me.

I also think the Charms that there are fit the ExEss description of Infernals quite well, but the ExEss description is quite broad at this stage so that's hardly a surprise.

A lot of tools have also been added via Exalt Advantages and Anima powers, too, so you can't rely entirely on the Charms to provide a picture of what the Infernals are.

The Advantages are especially interesting. Infernals get a lot of boss powers and smiting, and so there's a theme of lashing out or wreaking vengeance, but also of being villains if that's what you want to play.

All Infernals also get Devil-Body Incarnation (2e's Shintais) for free, although they only kick in when you hit your -2 health levels unless you take it as a Charm. This is very cool, and the optional traits your DBI can take are relatively broad.

All in all, I'm really happy with ExEss Infernals. Notably, all the signature Infernal characters from 2e can be emulated with the ExEss rules, more or less, so you don't have to change too much. But you are also less doomed to wind up doing evil than in 2e. You can be an Infernal and stick it to the man as an antihero rather than as a cackling villain.

Obviously, there are limited Charms in the book, due to space and this being a simpler version of the system, but there will be guidance on converting Charms over to ExEss, so you may be able to retrofit 2e/2.5e Infernal Charms with some work.

I thought I'd miss the weird Yozi-themed Charm suites, but the simplicity of the ExEss Charms more than makes up for that, and you don't have the problem of losing out on broad combat Charms because you didn't pick the Ebon Dragon or Adorjan.

[Yzarc]

Thanks for the details.

So how have all of you found the nuInfernals so far? Liking it? hating it?

What do you like the best and what do you dislike the most?

What expectations were fulfilled and what was not and finally, what more would you wish for?

(Oh and I explicitly disagree to any deals so no using VEE on this thread :P you filthy Infernals.)

[Ulthwithian]

I think that Infernals can be nearly-straight-up heroes in the right Exalted game with Essence. Clearly the game would need to be focused on overthrowing tyrants and the like, but it's certainly a possibility. I feel that it would be much more difficult to play a typical hero as, say, an Abyssal.

As one popular fiction example, Kelsier from Mistborn: The Final Empire by Brandon Sanderson fits very well into the mold of an Infernal, right down to being subtly influenced by a being bent on destruction. And yes, I know that Kelsier's hero status is a matter of conjecture in the Mistborn community, but at least for the story, he is very likely to be one.

[The Wizard of Oz]

Alright, so I Spoke with a friend and from what my friend said that the contents of chapter 2 does not match the Charms. That is to say, the Chapter 2 builds them up to be one thing but the fluff from the charms is essentially 2E charms (Not mechanically) with a over emphasis on ED charms that gives a different impression of what Infernals are supposed to be.

Can any one comment?

That's kind of true, if a bit reductive.

Which I think confused people, but I don't hate it personally. The Yozis choose people they think will want to tear down power structures, which is going to be people suffering under those power structures.
But they don't have "tear down power structure" charms. They have Infernal charms, ie demonic, Yozi-themed, alien monster charms. Which is good, otherwise they'd be the Chosen of Mist the Eternal Revolutionary, but they're not, they're the Chosen of the Yozis.

I would have been happy to have less Ebon Dragon-y charms and more general Infernal charms, because the Ebon Dragon's old charmset wasn't all that interesting IMO. But it didn't ruin it for me.

[Chejop Kejak]

The Yozis choose people they think will want to tear down power structures, which is going to be people suffering under those power structures. But they don't have "tear down power structure" charms. They have Infernal charms, ie demonic, Yozi-themed, alien monster charms.

This is interesting. My thoughts on their Charms were exactly the opposite.

They're amazing fighters, in particular, very hard to kill. They can change environments, and they're really good at getting into the head of one specific person. To me, that looks exactly right for tearing down a structure - you can break or kill the person in charge, change up the area to hinder their operations, and punch everyone you don't like without consequences. However, as I said in the post Yzaric quoted, "they don't seem to have any native way to change minds on a larger scale, with the closest thing being Unbreakable Laws of Hell (which can only change actions)." I would say that Infernal powers are great for tearing things down, but deliberately bad at building things up.

Is the intended narrative there "be a heroic rebel struggling both against society and against superpowers which don't do exactly what you want" or "sure, you can be a semi-heroic rebel, but you'll still always be a bit of an awful jerk"? Are both narratives still inherently problematic? Those are the questions I'm currently grappling with.

[adambeyoncelowe]

That's kind of true, if a bit reductive.

Which I think confused people, but I don't hate it personally. The Yozis choose people they think will want to tear down power structures, which is going to be people suffering under those power structures.
But they don't have "tear down power structure" charms. They have Infernal charms, ie demonic, Yozi-themed, alien monster charms. Which is good, otherwise they'd be the Chosen of Mist the Eternal Revolutionary, but they're not, they're the Chosen of the Yozis.

I would have been happy to have less Ebon Dragon-y charms and more general Infernal charms, because the Ebon Dragon's old charmset wasn't all that interesting IMO. But it didn't ruin it for me.

Yes, agreed. And this clarifies for me what the presumed contradiction was (sorry, I have appalling brain fog today).

The jump from 'Infernals are people who failed hard and have been given powers to wreak their vindictiveness (sorry, vengeance) on others' to 'Infernals are people who were oppressed and have been given powers to wreak their vengeance on others' feels relatively slight to me. It's a shift which also makes Infernals naturally more heroic (as well as being more how I played my Infernal back in 2e anyway).

It's a fine-tuning of concept that doesn't, actually, exclude characters from the old version being viable either. Someone who sees themself as oppressed but who is really just a petty and vindictive tyrant is totally legit, I think.

You can also become some demonic-monster thing, as in 2e, but you're not becoming a Yozi. Your Devil-Body Incarnation is something different. It's more like the Demon Shintai forms you have in Kindred of the East, but ramped up to 11.

It would be easy enough to make some new Charms inspired by the other Infernals if you feel that's lacking in the end. This book has limited space, so you're never going to get the 800 Charms of Ex3 (thank Malfeas!).

Also, on rereading the Charms, I see elements of the Ebon Dragon, Adorjan and Malfeas. So already, that's at least three of the Yozis represented to some degree or another.

[reaperfrost8]

One of the devs said that all the signature character from 2e are viable for 3e infernal exaltation so if you did have a 2e character in mind it is possible to convert it with ease.

[JohnDoe244]

So how have all of you found the nuInfernals so far? Liking it? hating it?

Not to my tastes.

Too similar to 2E to feel new. Too different from 2E to faithfully recreate the themes of my old characters.

But we'll see what they look like in the final release. And I can't wait to see Vance and Minton's take on them.

[adambeyoncelowe]

I think it would be fairly easy to port in anything you like (Devil Tiger, the Reclamation, etc). ExEss is so barebones you could do just about anything that happened in 2e.

Now, if you wanted to do Yozi Charm trees, that might be a bit trickier. But it's not impossible. Most of the new Charms fall into one or another with little fuss.

[Firanai]

Honestly, I like the new infernals quite a lot, but I'm going to wait for the sourcebook for my final judgement. In the meantime, I'm going to post here what I said in the essence thread:

"For me, the cool thing abou Infernals is that, regardless of the real intention of the one behind their exaltation, they are a living embodiment of the failures of creation, and that makes a lot of people very uncomfortable. Whoever takes the time to actually know their story can't say with a good conscience that they don't have a point or don't have a right to their anger, the world is a flawed place filled with a flawed system that hurts a lot of innocent people. That said, being a victim of abuse doesn't necessarily make you a good person or a hero, especially when power is involved. Whether the infernals become heroic rebels that tear down the corruption of heaven and earth, or creatures of pure destruction consumed by their resentment, is entirely up to each infernal moral compass. In the end, being an infernal in its best aspect is about rebellion against injustice, while on it's worst is about pure destruction out of spite. That's why for me Solars and infernals are not opposites but complementary. Solars exist to build a new and (hopefully) better world, while Infernals exist to tear down the (allegedly) corrupt old one."

[The MG]

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but it talks too much about anger and not enough about the curse-mad kings of the First Age angle. I'm here for Zorayas and Femto and KSBD's Seven demiurges, not for green Edmond Dantès (though he is cool).

Their Advantages are cool (Devil-Body Incarnation is a stealth Advantage). They really help with the JRPG villain look.

[reaperfrost8]

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but it talks too much about anger and not enough about the curse-mad kings of the First Age angle. I'm here for Zorayas and Femto and KSBD's Seven demiurges, not for green Edmond Dantès (though he is cool).

Their Advantages are cool (Devil-Body Incarnation is a stealth Advantage). They really help with the JRPG villain look.

If I remember that was a Holden thing way back where they were described as mad kings.

With the change of developers that concept of got ported out. Though it is probably still possible they have been worked on for years now with various different hands already.

Beyond essence which does give us a concept of what there going to be like in 3e we still need the infernal core to get all the details.

[vampire hunter D]

Just one question: are are not getting something like Lillun this time, right?