Advice on sorcerous workings requests

[Therian]

So one of my players sent me some sorcerous workings he wants to make. I'm feeling like they might be a little overpowered and wanted to see what you all thought and if anyone had any suggestions on tweaks.

Project 1 Self Improvement: Add Wings
Celestial Circle
Ambition 2 (Goal Number: 30 Successes)
XP Cost: 4
Finesse: 5
Means: 5

Materials:
Ink or paint
2 air elementals
Stone platform for ritual

Description of effect: Two Runes are sorcerously marked onto my back on my should blades. They both look like tattoos of the old realm words for freedom and air. Both runes are identical. When I use them wings made of a silver light comes forth from the runes. The light forms the wings bones structure while the feathers look like the are made from clouds.

Wing Effects:
Speed: Essence x 10/mph
Duration: Stamina Hours (Needs to take a one hours break before flying again)
Add 2 to Evasion DV as long as no or light armor only is worn.

Wing Power:

Shroud of the Sky Lord
5m 1wp (+3m per additional target to Ess. Rating.)
Type: Reflexive
Duration: One Round
Keyword: N/A

Several Rapid flutters of the wings send forth billowing surges of clouds engulfing the area around the sorcerer. The foggy area extends to Medium range from the point of the Sorcerer. It provides +2 to the defense of the sorcerer against ranged attacks and +1 to defense for close attacks. For an additional 3m the sorcerer can designate up to Ess. Rating in allies to receive the beneficial effects of the fog. Everyone not covered by the sorcerer gets none of the benefits of the fog.

Project 2 Self Improvement: Enhancement of Eyes
Celestial Circle
Ambition 2 (Goal Number: 30 Successes)
XP Cost: 4
Finesse: 5
Means: 5

Materials:
Various insects eyes 10 different species
Various Fish eyes 10 different species
Various Animal eyes 10 different species
Elemental eyes 1 of each type
Mortar and pestal
Stone Platform to dissolve the elemental

Description of Effect:
The eyes of the sorcerer gain the following abilities as the traits of the creatures used are absorbed absorbed into the sorcerers eyes. Eyes function with following abilities as normal and can be enhanced in use by charms that effect the sense. Each eye effect can be willed to be used by the sorcerer like adding a lens to the existing vision.

Eye Effects:
Night Vision
Low Light Vision
Infrared Vision
Ultraviolet Vision
Underwater Vision

Eye Power:
Discerning Spirits Eye
3m or 6m
Type: Reflexive
Duration: One Scene or Indefinite
Keyword: Sorcerous

The sorcerers iris's change to a golden color as their sight begins to sharpen and bring the spirit world in the area into focus. The 3m usage allows the sorcerer to do this for a scene and the 6m version allows them to keep the effect ongoing until they decide to stop committing the motes to it.

[Kelly Pedersen]

The first one seems fine to me. "Grants a supernatural power to oneself" is right in the definition of Celestial Circle Ambition 2. Heck, the flight speed might even be too slow - compare it to Stormwind Rider, a Terrestrial Circle spell - that gives movement at 100 mph right at Essence 1, plus can carry others. The working doesn't require time to cast, of course, or a WP, but I definitely don't think that's enough to unbalance it.

The second one, I'm a bit more skeptical of, mostly because of all the powers it gives. Having all of the vision types at once might be just a touch beyond Celestial 2. On the other hand, I'm not sure it's powerful enough to justify Celestial 3. I'd suggest making it so that the sorcerer can have any one of the eye abilities at once, but not all of them. And have their eyes physically change to match the eye of the creature they're getting the ability from - that seems nicely creepy and unsettling, perfect for sorcery.

One question about these in general - what means does the character have? 5 means definitely seems like they've put a lot of effort into getting ready for doing workings. I'm assuming the material components you've described count as 1 means for each, for exotic components?

[Kunoichi]

Having the wings give a passive evasion bonus seems rather leery to me. I'm typically of the opinion that enhancing yourself should give you nifty new things you can do, not just passively buff yourself. Then with the power, rather than giving a defense bonus, the mist should give a penalty to attacks. That way opponents with senses that can pierce mist will be able to use those. Also medium range is really really big. Not saying it's bad, but just be aware of how huge a medium range radius would be.

I'd be really wary about letting the eye thing through as is. It sounds like your sorcerer wants the entire sight-enhancing parts of the Awareness tree for 4 xp plus stuff they couldn't get otherwise.

Also those extra powers look like evocations. The Wing Power and the Eye Power should be separately bought after they do the sorcerous working. Buying them each like evocations would make this better. Otherwise the Eye Power is just Spirit Detecting Glance for free.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Also those extra powers look like evocations. The Wing Power and the Eye Power should be separately bought after they do the sorcerous working. Buying them each like evocations would make this better. Otherwise the Eye Power is just Spirit Detecting Glance for free.

I was assuming the "powers" were effectively evocations and would be learned separately. If they aren't, they should be, I definitely agree with Kunoichi here.

[Therian]

Basket of the of Plenty

The basket is closed. The user then thinks of the food they would like to eat or dishes they want and then open the basket. Once opened the basket will have enough food to feed up to 10 people the food that was imagined. The food while be simple but tasty and nourishing. It can be used twice a day.

* Special - if one has motes or has sorcery if they expend 5m or 10sm then they can apply a craft: cooking roll if they have the skill and the food complexity and quality can be increased.

Waterskin of Plenty

The waterskin can produce enough water for 10 people in a day.

Both of these I figured would fall under celestial sorcery ambition 1 or terrestrial ambition 3 but wanted your input on them

Here's a couple more things he wanted to do. But would these be artifacts?

[Therian]

I was assuming the "powers" were effectively evocations and would be learned separately. If they aren't, they should be, I definitely agree with Kunoichi here.

I think they will have to be evocation type powers. Is that even a thing you can do with a working? At the moment I'm feeling the 2 Evasion bump on the wings is too good. And the eye power does seem to cover everything.

[Elfive]

I mean, if I were doing a sorcerous working to grant wings I'd probably use the Wings merit in the book as a basis.

[Shaddar]

Here's a couple more things he wanted to do. But would these be artifacts?

That does sound like the type of thing an artifact 2 should do, but i think there can be some overlap between the two in this cases. You could also make an artifact that nourishes the land, allowing for better crops.

I think they will have to be evocation type powers. Is that even a thing you can do with a working? At the moment I'm feeling the 2 Evasion bump on the wings is too good. And the eye power does seem to cover everything.

There is a one dot merit in the mara initiation that allows you to but evocations, and you also have terrestrial spells that give you evocations.
And if we take this post made in the ask a dev thread:

Since this got missed a few threads back:

Would it be possible for someone who has created a set of shaping rituals based on one’s blood such as a Socreree King of Ysyr to use a celestial level sorcerous working to gain evocations similar to a 3 dot artifact? It’s obviously not craft but more akin to a blood mage or blood bender from Dragon Age or Avatar respectively?

There are already sorcerous initiations that let you get access to Evocations through them, like the Pact with Mara and the Talisman of Ten Thousand Eyes, so I don't think a working would be required.

A working that just gives wings or eyes without any other special power + the ability to buy evocations, would be a terrestrial working.

[mizzlfoshizzl]

A working that just gives wings or eyes without any other special power + the ability to buy evocations, would be a terrestrial working.

Agreed - both of those sound like “grant mutations to oneself” which is Emerald Circle, Ambition 2.

The wings I would treat exactly as the merit in the core, and they wouldn’t be something that can disappear at will. You just grew yourself wings, you freaky sorcerer! Maybe you can hide ‘em under a cloak but you’re obviously a mutant now. Similarly conspicuous to an Anathema carrying a giant god-metal sword.

The eyes I would only allow one type at a time, and it’s literally turning their eyes into wolf/bird/fish/insect eyes. Situationally useful but could be blinding or ineffective in other situations, and again, you’re a freaky mutant sorcerer now.

Powers would be purchased as evocations. The eyes just giving Spirit Detecting Glance isn’t OP, it’s just boring, since that’s about the most basic Occult charm there is. Something like creating an Awareness-based read intentions as you read the colors of their aura is at least a little more interesting.

The wings should not have a static Defense bonus, and their mist evocation should be modeled as creating cover for everyone (friend and foe alike) in the area. I would have it progress over 3 rounds, starting with light cover at close range, then each round it extends one range band and the previously shrouded range bands increase one level of cover, until close range is total concealment, short is heavy cover, and medium is light cover. Maximum duration one scene. Simple type. Quick swag I would cost it at 6-7 motes, but you should do a little research and compare/contrast with other scene-length defense bonuses.

[BrilliantRain]

If the Sorcerer is doing a Celestial Working to get wings, then I think they should be substantially better than just having the Wings merit, so I'm pretty ok with the way the first one is set up....but I wouldn't allow the passive +2 to evasion. You already got wings! Just fly out of reach. I'd also probably apply the -3 penalty to certain actions from the Wings merit just to ensure they don't go crazy with the death from above type stuff. The charm seems ok to me cost-wise, but be prepared to adjust in play if things get problematic.

In fact, I think you should make sure your player understands that you might need to adjust things if problems occur in play and so changes might need to be made.

[Elfive]

Wings + Subtlety would be fine as a single working, I think. So retractable wings are totally viable.

[BrilliantRain]

For the eye thing...most of those vision types aren't really known of as a thing in Creation and there aren't really any existing mechanics for them either. I'd probably offer them the Keen Sight supernatural merit and the ability to negate 2 points of penalties to vision rolls from the environment or a -1 to difficulty, and they can use the additional visual information in their stunts to detect stuff and everything.

Seeing spirits isn't OP, but, yeah, it could be a bit boring. Work with the player to make sure that they understand that their new vision is kinda freaky and trippy and weird, like they can see several new colors that other humans literally cannot comprehend and maybe spirits show up as rainbow outlines of those colors when they're dematerialized.

[armyofwhispers]

Honestly, I'd model the wings as a spell. If he wants to be able to turn them on/off then he should cast the spell each time he wants wings. I'd treat it the same as Wood Dragon's Claws, especially with the evocations.

If the player wants permanent mist wings that'd be a working.

[armyofwhispers]

Okay, further critique.

The eye working is probably overboard to grant all of those advantages at once. Note that the Enhanced Sense Supernatural Merit is the only actual 'mutation' available. The merits for keen sight or other such things that animals get access to are not technically available for purchase as mutations.

I can see being able to swap out your eyes for a single vision trick based on the animal's eyes that you swap for. Keen sight for eagle eyes, night vision for cats eyes, ultraviolet eyes is you swap for insect eyes etc. I would not allow a character to hide these features, nor to gain more than one at a time. Workings are not exactly subtle. I also wouldn't allow you to buy evocations for these eyes unless you're replacing them with something like crystal orbs or faceted gems or some such.

Eye lasers are cool and awesome, replicating solar charms... not so much. If he wants to see spirits, tell him to take some occult or awareness charms. Sorcerous workings should never give discounted access to charm effects.

Furthermore, I'd say you're being pretty lax in granting means here. "ink or paint" is not an exotic component unless it's composed of the blood or a powerful magical being or has other powerful properties. Two air elementals should count as a single means. 'Stone platform for ritual' had better be a freaking amazing carved, blessed and possibly enchanted alter with mystical resonance with the element of air and/or wings. Same with the second set. Maybe allow the eyes of multiple animals as a single exotic component. Repeats of the same theme are dull, and not going to cause the player to work appreciably harder to gain each set. Once again, that alter better be freaking magical to be included as a means. Means are supposed to require a certain amount of effort to accumulate. Don't forget that complimentary abilities are a thing, as is extra time and complementary spells. Your player could definitely use stormwind rider as a complimentary spell for the wings working I'd think.

As for the basket of plenty and the waterskin of plenty they'd be 1-2 dot artifacts or possibly spells. Once again, I wouldn't allow repeatable, trigger-able stuff like that to be created as a working. Just whip up a spell that provides food and water for around 10 people. It'd likely be a ritual spell and can only be cast at dawn or some such.