How often do you delay your action to attempt a clash?

[Sunder the Gold]

This question is especially for players whose characters use two-handed heavy weapons, with their clash bonus and low Accuracy.

[SamuraiMujuru]

Not nearly enough

[Sunder the Gold]

Because of its weapon, the tetsubo/grand goremaul, a martial artist of Earth Dragon Style always has the option to knock a target down or away. The Form Charm specifically improves the accuracy of the inaccurate weapon when making smash attacks or attacking prone targets, encouraging the martial artist to knock the target down and keep hammering them while they're down, but it shouldn't be forgotten that the martial artist can also simply strike with her body for more accurate attacks that lack the costs of smash attacks, and these unarmed attacks could include the Charms of other Styles. If these unarmed attacks (such as stomps) are made against a prone target, they are even more accurate.

(By "accurate", I mean that the Charms make it cheaper to max out your dice-pools; they don't actually break your dice-cap or do anything to make your dice more effective.)

But in order to further increase the odds of landing a hit with the hammer, the martial artist can delay her action to attempt to force a clashing smash attack. This could allow her to succeed with Stillness-of-Stone Atemi (especially backed up with Force of the Mountain, and possibly Hungry Earth Strike). Succeeding with that withering attack could then allow her to launch an Avalanche Method (also backed up with Force of the Mountain for each attack) in the next round before her target gets a chance to act (such as rising from prone or breaking out of Hungry Earth Strike's prison), and before his mobility penalty wears off, even if she doesn't drive him into crash.

Plus, when the martial artist does decide to risk a failed clash attack's punishment (including an Onslaught penalty) and an attempted smash attack's Defense penalty, her Style allows the heaviest of armor and provides up to four Charms for soaking attacks, reflecting a great deal of caution.

Incidentally, she could potentially reduce her Defense to 0 with multiple smashing attacks through Avalanche Method. Also, using even one smash attack (let alone the three or four successful smashing attacks necessary to cause any falling damage) would more quickly lower Avalanche Method's decisive damage pool, as each one costs 2 Initiative to attempt. This is why it helps that no single attack will have less than base Initiative damage.

[Sunder the Gold]

Fire Dragon Style uses light-weight weapons, but since they are paired, the you get the same +2 clash bonus. While the Style also allows unarmed attacks which enables you to mix Styles, short daiklaves offer objectively superior traits for pure Fire Dragon attacks.

Flash-Fire Technique helps you act first, giving you the option of delaying your action to attempt to force a clash with some of the best basic accuracy in the game. Your enemy's two-handed hammer's greater damage means nothing if you win the attack roll contest.

But your opponent wouldn't have to worry about the preemptive onslaught penalty imposed by Fire Dragon Form.

Overwhelming Fire Majesty Stance makes it even harder for you to fail a clash, and also offers the Style's only precaution against a failed clash attack, aside from the limited allowance on armor. Inflicting one dice of Hardness-ignoring lethal damage isn't a very fair trade for potentially dying, though. Consuming Might of the Fire Dragon improves this "defense", but not enough to risk your life for it.

By delaying your action to clash with a withering attack, you may strike with Searing Edge Attack, destroying your opponent's Initiative as well as stealing it. But since your Initiative was already higher before you succeeded on this withering attack, the tactical situation doesn't change all that much.

Breath of the Fire Dragon is unblockable; there's no reason to ever delay using this attack.


In conclusion, this Style really doesn't support the tactic of delaying actions, given how its Charms enable and reward attacking immediately, before your opponent can act, and then parrying attacks if your opponent survived. These same parrying Charms likewise don't support the practice of protecting yourself with a clash attack, which is probably why the Style has nothing like Earth Dragon's Weapon-Breaking Defense Technique.

Fire Dragon Style also has nothing like the combination of Stillness-of-Stone Atemi (which creates a potentially short window of opportunity) and Avalanche Method (which absolutely requires a potentially short window of opportunity). Earth Dragon Style has a theme of setting up a singular, momentarily perfect situation in which the target is utterly helpless and thoroughly screwed.

By contrast, Fire Dragon is about immediately and relentlessly fucking up someone's shit from the word "Go". Therefore, there's little incentive to delay for a withering attack that lets one launch a decisive attack before the opponent's turn in the next round.

[Sunder the Gold]

For some reason, White Reaper Style now allows unarmed attacks. These offer one point more Accuracy than artifact spears, but probably cannot grapple with this Ability. Neither weapon offers a Clash bonus. Spears offer a +1 Defense bonus.

But if one wants to use the heavy-weight lances and scythes allowed by the style, Accuracy is low, and the Two-Handed tag definitely grants the clash bonus.

White Reaper does allow the heaviest of armor and includes a soak-enhancing Charm, allowing one some protection against failed clash attacks. But the Style also offers two parry-enhancing Charms, while lacking a reflexive clash defense Charm, so clashing isn't necessarily the Style's best defense.

Bleeding Crescent Strike works just as well for a normal attack as for a clash. Beware if you want to use Falling Scythe Flash for a decisive clash (with or without Bleeding Crescent Strike), as losing two points of Initiative by delaying your action could bring your Initiative total equal to your target's, and thus disqualify using the Charm against them.

Like Fire Dragon Style, White Reaper lacks a "Stillness-of-Stone Atemi / Avalanche Method" duo of "set-up and super-attack", and has no native way to knock a target prone. There's little incentive to delay a withering attack for the purpose of clashing and then attacking before the target can act on the next round, so the only point of delaying your action is when you're confident that you can use your heaviest weapon to beat someone's best attack rather than their best defense.

[TheCountAlucard]

For some reason, White Reaper Style now allows unarmed attacks.

You say that like White Reaper hasn't always allowed unarmed attacks.

To answer your central question* though: I don't play many combat-centric PCs, assuming I'm not the ST, so I have yet to do it.





______________
*Which I initially thought was rhetorical, given the way you launched into tactical analyses of the different Martial Arts styles, right up until I got your Visitor Message.

[BadassOverlord]

Almost always whenever my intended target has less Initiative than me. But then again my character uses paired short artifact weapons which is literally the highest possible base accuracy for a withering attack in the game

[Sunder the Gold]

Almost always whenever my intended target has less Initiative than me. But then again my character uses paired short artifact weapons which is literally the highest possible base accuracy for a withering attack in the game

I do want to look at Mantis and Tiger Styles next, for that reason.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Very often.

I have defense penalties? Time to delay, clashes don't care about onslaught, and wound penalties are effectively halved.

They're laboring under a penalty to rolled actions? Time to delay, I'm better off hitting their penalized attack than their unmodified defense.

I have trouble with their soak or they're down to their last health level and I don't have the initiative to reliably finish them? Clash damage bonuses may solve the issue.

Applying a -2 Defense penalty from losing a clash before my big decisive next turn is also supremely useful.

And then you have the sheer psychological impact of saying "I delay my action" when you have a sufficiently large bonus relative to your opponent - you can often force them to avoid attacking entirely, without having to give up much in return (the initiative from delaying is lost, sure, but you can always just do your attack after they're done with their turn).

[The Wizard of Oz]

Hardly ever, but I really should, as I'm using two short daiklaives. It kind of feels a bit risky though, to throw away 2i, when they might not even attack you. Though I guess you can then just stab them anyway.

[Sunder the Gold]

How many motes would you be willing to spend to keep those Initiative points?

[DrLoveMonkey]

Hardly ever, but I really should, as I'm using two short daiklaives. It kind of feels a bit risky though, to throw away 2i, when they might not even attack you. Though I guess you can then just stab them anyway.

Something you can always do is try to be an arrogant dick during the combat and make them WANT to attack you, even if they shouldn’t. I think that’s basically what fire aspects are built to do.

How many motes would you be willing to spend to keep those Initiative points?

That’s a very good question. Would it be a blanket save motes to delay for any reason, or only to clash?

[Sunder the Gold]

Something you can always do is try to be an arrogant dick during the combat and make them WANT to attack you, even if they shouldn’t. I think that’s basically what fire aspects are built to do.

Agreed.

That’s a very good question. Would it be a blanket save motes to delay for any reason, or only to clash?

Answer for both questions, please.

[The Wizard of Oz]

How many motes would you be willing to spend to keep those Initiative points?

Hmmmm... 3 or 4 maybe?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

1m for 1i is generally a decent, if not outstandingly good deal (see also: Reed in the Wind).

Are you asking how much is the maximum I'd be willing to pay to retain 2i? How much would make me very happy to have the ability?