At the Throne of Chaos: Nocturnal 3e [Brainstorming/Thoughts]

[LostLight]

While I am aware that waiting to at least the Storyteller's Guide in order to see how Getimians turn up is, probably, the wisest move, as an ardent Nocturnals fan I'm kinda of tired of waiting and living in a constant waiting and fear that my favorite Exalted splat would be invalidated. As such, I thought that while we don't know exactly about the capabilities of the Getimians, we probably know enough to start and developing the core themes of what being a Nocturnal means- or, at least, what is the base upon which we could be building in order to make the Nocturnals into something unique.

First, we should examine what we actually know about the Getimians-

a) Each of them is a stillborn fate, a person who should not have existed, yet does
b) Whatever their maker and "god" may be, Rakan Thulio is the most dominant figure in their early life, contacting them through dreams and visions to lure them to his cause
c) Getimians are known to host pattern spiders in their spine, which move through their body and shift the Essence between their chakras
d) Their Essence is divided into yin and yang pools, with certain Charms working differently depending on the Essence which powers them
e) Using a form of internal alchemy (called Getimian Alchemy), they can synthesize new Fates and unleash them upon the world from the yin/tang Essence
f) They are created- not by Rakan Thulio, but they are more in the style of Alchemical/Liminal Exalted than the others by the virtue of not really being existing mortals which gained Exaltation, but entities which were born due to the event which formed their Exaltation
g) have access to Sidereal Martial Arts (I think) and resonate with Starmetal

Now, looking at what we know, I must say that they don't seem to have much in common with what I think about when I think about Nocturnals- but there may be some conceptual similarities. The biggest overlaps may come from the connection to the Sidereal Exalted, the possible paradox/time manipulation themes, and the possible mechanical similarity between Fluctuations and Getimian Alchemy.

Now, the first overlap is also the easiest to solve- that is, the relationship between Sidereals and Nocturnals vs Sidereals and Getimians. To quote Vance, Nocturnals serve more as the Sidereals' Lunars, while the Getimians are their Abyssals/Infernals. While The Nocturnals have some... complicated relationships with the Chosen of the Maidens, the thing is that they share kinship- just like how Nox and his sisters had before the Primordial War. That is expressed in their themes- the Sidereals represents fate, order and maintenance of Creation. The Nocturnals represents free will, dreams and possibilities of the unknown. The Sidereals weave and maintains Creation's future, while the Nocturnals introduce change and possibilities upon which they could draw. They complement each other, just like how the Solars' shinning perfection and the Lunars' shifting forms challenge and complete one another to allow each of them to grow.

The Getimians, on the other hand, don't seem to do that- theirs is an existence which should not be, and each carriers a seed of not a future which might be, but of a past which was erased, discarded and lost- or at least, thought to be lost, until perhaps "found" by Rakan Thulio. Getimians see Heaven and its messengers as their enemies (at least, at first), and feel no "kinship" to those who may be responsible to the life they should have had, yet were taken from them.

The last overlap is also not that impossible to solve, as the themes and concepts behind the two mechanics seems to be different- Nocturnals use Fluctuations in order to produce their visions of what the future holds, transforming the world around them to produce new possibilities. Those possibilities are always presented as temporary creations- and what grants the Nocturnals their title as Heralds. They show what the world could produce- dreaming a world which does not exist, but might be.

Getimian Alchemy is described somewhat differently- it is meant to allow the Getimian to control their own, personal fate, and unleash new fates upon the world. They carefully balance and control their internal energies in order to produce a new fate- one which goes against Fate's web. They don't imagine a different world and then make that dream into reality- they enforce their own will, their own fate, upon the Loom to disrupt it. It is even described differently- as the Getimians weave a new fate which either disrupts the patterns of the Loom or control the movement of their own fates, while the Nocturnals cause the Loom to shake and twist for only a short time, to shape the world to their needs.

Now, the remaining overlap is the most difficult to estimate, as we don't know much about the extent of the Getimians' time manipulation abilities other than that their existence is, basically, an alternative timeline which does not exist and that their name has a connotation of "time" (even though the actual meaning is "to happen". Well, that and that the Nox vs Grougaloragran battle from Wakfu could be used as an example for a Getimian vs Lunar fight. From the Nocturnal's side, the time manipulation is a derivative of their more general theme- that is, possibilities. Possibilities are, after all, possible futures. Choosing between alternative futures could be interpenetrated as choosing between different timelines. Choosing between different timelines is practically time travel. However, I think that it needs to be emphasized that Nocturnals should govern the future- what might be, not might have been.

So, after talking so much about Nocturnals are already different than Getimians, we should ask what Nocturnals should be in 3e, and which of their themes should be emphasized. As this question was already asked here and here, we should first sum up those two and build upon them in our journey after the place of the Chosen of Possibilities in 3e-

a) Fluctuations are, of course, important- the ability to call forth a new possibility is the iconic power of those Exalts. As such, we need to make sure that Fluctuations are both mechanically compelling and setting-wise unique, and that they truly express the idea of a "future which might be".

b) Alter Ego is yet another cool concept, as well as their renewal- dying and being born as a different person, or creating an ideal self, both express the themes of possibility and choice over fate. The Getimian work to enforce themselves upon the world, while the Nocturnal shape themselves toward a future only they can see.

c) Probability and paradox, re-defining what is possible and what the future holds. Practically, both cheating your way out of a situation and solving a paradox by re-defining the problem. Kind of reminding how Nocturnal Exaltations were originally trapped- as Nox is the god of possibilities, his Essence was captured by an impossible situation- and creating a way out of that paradox was the only way to free the Exaltations. Nocturnals are cheaters, who find loopholes in the rules of the universe in order to make the impossible, possible.

d) References to quantum mechanics have been emphasized many times through the original book- which makes sense. Quantum mechanics is a probabilistic theory, which defines that you can't know what the future holds. More specifically, the game leaned toward the Many Worlds Interpretation, and the Nocturnals choosing which future they would live in. As 3e leans more toward a fantasy styling of the setting and less magi-tech one, perhaps the references should be adjusted or toned down.

e) Adjustments for the Curse of Servitude may be required, for both mechanical and setting-wise reasons. It may have been seen as too limiting, and its story may reinforce the theme of "Sidereals are at fault of everything which is wrong about the world". Still, I think its existence is required to make sure that the Nocturnals are, indeed, harlequins and cheaters, and gives an anchor to their conflict for freedom. I kinda toyed with the thought of modifying the curse into the inert nature of Nox- the god which could not choose between sides, and tried to choose both, and making the Curse being tied to their intimacies- that is, the stronger they care about someone (either positively or negatively), the more that someone has power over the Nocturnals, physically making them into "slaves to their passions", just like their god.

f) Magical materials- while it was Adamant in 2e, as it meant to cover the "missing Exalted" situation, in 3e it was confirmed that the Heart Eater were originally those Exalts. As such, another material may be needed- Onyx was suggested, but we already have two "stoney" materials (jade and adamant), and "magical onyx" does not strike me as having too much of a mythical connections. Perhaps using some metals with alchemical significance could be better- magical copper is painfully missing in the setting, and Black Lead was eventually not used as the Infernals' magical material (at least, in 2e). Perhaps the Nocturnals don't have a resonating magical material at all- they simply can't favor one material over the others, and limit themselves in the process.

g) Another thing to consider is that 3e explicitly tries to not tell us why exactly someone gains an Exaltation, and as such saying that the Nocturnals are chosen among those with "thwart fates" could be against its themes. Still, I think that it should kept in some fashion, as it signifies that Nocturnals work toward a future not dictated by fate. Perhaps the Exaltation would take the form of who they may be, as Nox takes their own faces to offer them a freedom outside of fate's web?

h) Finally, some choices need to be made about Nox himself. As a god of possibilities, I won't be surprised if there would be as many myths about his origin as his chosen- was a he betrayer god, siding with the Primordials over his kin? Was he betrayed, his sisters not trusting his unpredictable nature? Is he an Incrana at all? Is he an entity from the future, trying to pave the possibility for its own existence? Or perhaps a being from the past, whose existence was removed being recognition? Does he creates paradoxes, or perhaps tries to solve them? Is the act of Exaltation is perhaps granting his Chosen the future that they yearn for, and the power to achieve it? Does Nox exists at all, or is he simply a title used by the future self of each and every one of us?

Well, that's it for the sum up- and I think it is enough material to, at least, start to conceptually build the place for Nocturnals in 3e's setting. Please feel free to share your thoughts on the subject!

[Iceblade44]

I definitely think Nocturnals and Getimians can be distinct enough that you can have both, but yeah at present its easier to think their to similar, we really need the anima banners of Getimians lol. That said I think Nocturnals are a solid enough concept that would benefit a conversion, though I have some opinions, ideas, and critiques.

1) For the Magic Materials, I would suggest doing something along the Liminal then just add another one straight up. I have a couple of reasons for this. One, just adding a new magical material feels a bit cheap. Even with adamant being a secret one, its ultimately something which has been constant. Plus you can argue how exactly would the Essence of Nox would have been able to interact with Creation to create a metal while he's stuck in the Loom. plus the new origin for star metal fits to much with his domain that I can see it being probable. Two, as is Nox relationship with the Night Sky which houses the stars could be a perfect enough explanation of why his Chosen would have it as Neutral but not Resonant. Nox is not the stars after all, he holds them up, he touches them, hangs them. His darkness may hold infinite possibilities for new stars but he is not the god of stars, thus keeping it connected but distant. Also probably should not have the firmament made of adamant, and instead be vague what is. After all the Daystar is gone. From what we know the Sun is just the Sun, thus the Night sky could just be empty space, space that could be anything though. As Nox is Infinite Possibilities

EDIT: By the same logic then they should also be neutral to Moonsilver, which honestly I wouldn't mind

2) I certainly agree with a changing of the Curse of Servitude, and on to that. Nox's and the Nocturnals fluff should probably be taken a good revision. With how it is written out it there are some points that don't really fit with how 3e handles things, like to much information on the explanations. 3e tries to add mystery back into the setting and well if we don't do that to one of the mysterious gods then why would we? Like for one thing, the Incarnae no longer tinkers around with their Exaltations as it was previously. Sol and Luna being the ones responsible for the Color-Lunar Bond is gone. Thus its probably imperative to examine what exactly is Nox as an Incarnae? Its probably find to detail his original role, assisting the Maiden's in tending the Loom. You should mention Nox's nature in flux, how he was the brother of the Maidens and how while they planned destiny it was from him that all ideas sprung forth. But you should keep what happen to him as you said a mystery. Did he betray or was betrayed? One point I want to keep is that he is in the Loom, just keep how he got their unknown. Like did the Maiden's put him their, the Primordials, or was he always in it, being the structure that fate rests on, the threads of destinies being pulled from his body of possibilities. I think by keeping his nature unknown helps in keeping the antagonism between Sidereals and Nocturnals low. It is the Getimian's now that wants to disrupt fate, thinking that it is unfair and cruel. While Nocturnals should have some impetus in freeing Nox, it shouldn't be their end goal. Just one of many possibilities. Nocturnals should be able to stand at the middle line. Whether to support fate or destroy it. Another thing I want some insight on is some of the optional incarna that will be in Exigents. The patron of Umbrals, was also a traitor Incarna and frankly they sound similar to Nox so I want to examine it. Though they do seem to have different themes and will be non canon just like Nox, frankly I want to see how they are a traitor, how Nox is different and capitalize on it. In anywise fresh looks on the backstory and how Heralds and Harlequins work is probably good to do. Though note that a good point to think about that every Exalted that warred against and killed those that would become Neverborn is under the Great Curse. So if Harlequins fought in the war but was already under the Curse of Servitude and shackled with another curse, thats to much. So you idea for the Curse to be more on Nox's flux should go to the Heralds that are unbound while Harlequins should just have a Limit Track and their versions of breaks. Of course then you should look into why they fought for the Exalted Host if their not bound, what made them fight? Why are they different from Heralds?

3) Another thing that probably should be looked at is the Nature of Nocturnal Exaltation which you commented on. To be honest, destined for greatness interrupted by others doesn't sound to appealing to me. I'm fine with second chances but I think it should be laid down in an appealing matter that should fit in lie with Nox's theme of flux. Which probably should be clarified to be distinct from Luna's ever changing nature I guess. Also take away being Chosen from the greater good, yeah no by by. An Exaltation shouldn't come into morality, you shouldn't be automatically the good guys. Its you the players that make that decision. An Exaltation should give some insights to the patrons presences, themes, and personality. Even Dragon-Blooded who Exaltation is different all have some emotions and feelings that they Exalt to, something far grandeur then just simple. I also want to know exactly what is a stillborn fate that the Getimians have, and how that structures things to make it clear difference between them and Nocturnals who could be chosen for a "Possible future" or something like that.

Well in any case, thats just a few of my thoughts anyway

[Epitome]

Here's a concept for a possible Nox origin that ditches the entire betrayed-and-shoved-into-a-loom thing :

Nox was one of the very first beings created by the Primordials when they made Creation, the backdrop upon which the stars would take hold to then oversee the rest of Creation. He was a counterpart to the Voice in the Trench - where the Voice created things, he created times and circumstances for those things to appear in.

Nox was a test prototype for Incarnae, and as such he falls somewhere in between the incomprehensible nature of the Primordials and the very human natures of the Incarnae. Rather than being simply a humanoid embodiment ruling over an aspect of the sky, he is both the literal night sky and a humanoid Incarnae ruling over it at the same time, somehow both the ruler and the domain.

The primordial influence in his nature means that Nox's mind works in alien ways at the best of times. He was always strangely mad and didn't need to get shoved inside the Loom of Fate for that. He is apart from the other Incarnae not because his loyalties are dubious but because they are impossible to acquire in the first place. His stance in the primordial war was neutral, not as a moral stance or as a calculated move, but simply because taking a side would have narrowed down his own set of possible futures significantly, which was something he could not stand for.

When the Incarnae created Exalted in their bid to overthrow the Primordials, Nox did not care for joining in the war but he was fascinated by the concept of beings who could resist the yoke of fate and by the possibilities they created. Therefore, he set about to create his own Exalted.

It was a complete surprise for the Exalted host when Nocturnals appeared before them for the first time, offering to join their cause. But the joy of newfound allies became bittersweet when they realized many other Nocturnals had joined the Primordials instead. In the end, the dying Primordials did not distinguish friend from foe and struck all Nocturnals with the Great Curse.

For Exaltation :

Nox selects his Chosen not out of any virtue or merit they have as individuals, but for their potential to create new possibilities. Looking through all possible futures, Nox takes notice of a mortal whom, if they just got a slight nudge in the right direction, could impact fate and possibilities in new and interesting ways, be they good or bad. If this piques his interest, he will grant that mortal Exaltation at the very moment where it would give them an opportunity to radically change the course their destiny, creating long-ranging tremors in the Loom of Fate.

Nox created his Chosen with the hope that they would surprise even him with the new possibilities they brought with them. He never tells them what to do, but he is known to offer them cryptic hints into ways they might create many new possible futures with their actions. More experienced Nocturnals know not to blindly follow his suggestions, as Nox does not care whether the outcome is positive or negative, just that it is new and unexpected.

For magical materials :

Nocturnals are Neutral with Starmetal, Moonsilver and Adamant, and Dissonant with all other materials. A Nocturnal may enhance her connection with her artifact by using it to create new possibilities. When a Nocturnal uses her Artifact in a dramatic way that creates a new possibility which could not have existed without this specific artifact, she may increase her resonance with the Artifact by 1 level for the Scene, making Starmetal, Moonsilver and Adamant Resonant and all other materials Neutral.

Edit : Changed the concept for how/why Nocturnals were created after TheSarcasticSage pointed out my original concept didn't fit with 3E lore

[TheSarcasticSage]

I remember Nocturnals fondly, and I'm interested in seeing what comes of this thread, but this:

Even though Nox remained neutral in the conflict, Luna talked Autochton into creating Exalted for him despite the Maidens' objections. She based her argument on the conviction that these Exalted, gifted with more human natures, would have the necessary humanity to appreciate the effort to overthrow the Primordials and would willingly join the rebellion. And thus poetically the Nocturnal were created for the possible future they might bring and for their potential as free-willed agents. In the end not all Nocturnal joined the rebellion, but enough of them did for them to get hit by the Great Curse.

Nox feels no kinship for his chosen nor any desire to rule over them, but he often interacts with them as they are his most potent tools for inserting new fates and possibilities into the world. The nature of these interactions are closer to the ravings of a mad hermit than that of a god overseeing his children.

is not how things work in 3e. Autochton did not create any Exaltations but his own, and as per word of Dev, no one can make Exaltations for another. Also, every Exaltation is the choice of the God doing the exalting. There is no more automatic exalting in 3e. With the possible exception of the Dragon Blooded, and Alchemicals, every other Exalt is personally chosen by the entity granting the exaltation. Your patrons chose you, for what ever reason, and I think that creates better stories then the above idea.

[Epitome]

I remember Nocturnals fondly, and I'm interested in seeing what comes of this thread, but this:

is not how things work in 3e. Autochton did not create any Exaltations but his own, and as per word of Dev, no one can make Exaltations for another. Also, every Exaltation is the choice of the God doing the exalting. There is no more automatic exalting in 3e. With the possible exception of the Dragon Blooded, and Alchemicals, every other Exalt is personally chosen by the entity granting the exaltation. Your patrons chose you, for what ever reason, and I think that creates better stories then the above idea.

Thanks for the correction, I was unaware of that. I think I actually prefer this new way of handling it, so all the better.

Here's a correction for the bit you quoted then :

When the Incarnae created Exalted in their bid to overthrow the Primordials, Nox did not care for joining in the war but he was fascinated by the concept of beings who could resist the yoke of fate and by the possibilities they created. Therefore, he set about to create his own Exalted.

It was a complete surprise for the Exalted host when Nocturnals appeared before them for the first time, offering to join their cause. But the joy of newfound allies became bittersweet when they realized many other Nocturnals had joined the Primordials instead. In the end, the dying Primordials did not distinguish friend from foe and struck all Nocturnals with the Great Curse.

Nox created his Chosen with the hope that they would surprise even him with the new possibilities they brought with them. He never tells them what to do, but he is known to offer them cryptic hints into ways they might create many new possible futures with their actions. More experienced Nocturnals know not to blindly follow his suggestions, as Nox does not care whether the outcome is positive or negative, just that it is new and unexpected.

[LostLight]

On the subject of Magical Materials: Actually, my initial thought was making them neutral toward all of existing materials, as a manifestation of Nox's inability to commit to a choice- from one side, they keep all options open. On the other, they can't really excel at anything. Perhaps they could, temporary, commit themselves to a certain MM, but they would have to give up something in exchange, becoming dissonant with another material. We should, of course, also decide how good the Nocturnals should be with Evocations- the guidelines say that the more that the Exalted wears its power on the outside, the less they can awaken Evocations from their weapon of choice. How external are the Nocturnals? Not so much, IMO, as they actually draw upon their imagination and vision for the future. Having them resonating with only Starmetal would also make them too similar in that respect to Sidereals and Getimians, and I think that three splats with the same MM choice is kinda boring. I agree on the concept of not forcing a new material unless it is called for, but I still wait to see my copper/lead/tin Exalts :P

In short, my suggestion for the Nocturnals is having all materials as initially Neutral, with perhaps a way to commit themselves to one one the expense of the other. It reinforce their theme of possibilities and make them less predictable- something which Nox would probably like. If we do want to give a special place to a few materials, Epitome's suggestion does sounds good.

On the subject of the Curse- I was still working under the assumption that the Nocturnals have showed up after the Divine Rebellion. At any case, I think that some form of the Curse of Servitude would make the bet sense for them (as the Great Curse influence the passions of the Exalts, having them developing servitude toward their intimacies also makes a lot of sense). At any case, I wish to emphasis that the title Harlequins comes specifically due to their nature as "bound servants". Harlequins, after all, come from the Commedia dell Arte, serving as the "smart servant" of the play which, from one side, was forced to serve their idiotic master, and from the other used their trickery and intelligence in order to defeat their master and allow the Lovers to unite. They are also clowns, of course- but their trickery comes from their servitude, and the same should be true for the Nocturnals, IMO. We should also consider the Sidereal- Nocturnal bond- in 3e, the Solar- Lunar bond is a deliberate creation of the Exalts themselves, as a form of political marriage, and a result of the Sunstrife Wars. As such, it would make me surprised if the Nocturnals would have exactly the same type of bond such as the Lunars. Perhaps the Nocturnal bond is more of a manifestation of their "curse"- Nox has strong kinship toward his sisters, be it love or hate. Usually, when a Nocturnal has a passion toward another individual, it is a one sided connection- but when it is formed toward a Sidereal, the curse "resonates"- and is nullified. Nocturnals are bond to everyone and everything they care about- except to the Chosen of the Stars. It is not a bond as much as of a lack of servitude, and for someone so riddled with connections, the lack of bond is more important from its existence, as for the Nocturnals, it grants them what they yearn for the most- true freedom.

On the subject of Exaltation, having Nox himself choosing his Chosen does, of course, makes a lot of sense in 3e's setting. I'm still kind of a fan of Nox wearing the face of the possible future self of their Chosen, as it maintains the theme of time shenanigans and makes the Exaltation creepy- which I like. On Nox's origin, the reason that I think that having him a number of in-game origin stories which contradict each other is that it really works with his theme of possibilities- everything is true, as long as there is no evidence. Perhaps Nox actively tries to remove evidence for its existence, to make sure he won't be bound to a single possibility, and that he intentionally creates the many stories about his existence as a part of that process (which would really annoy his sisters). If Nox is still weaved into the Loom, I think that, like the Yozi's prison, freeing him should not be an option- just to make sure the game won't always evolve into "freeing our god from the cruel web of fate". We should also consider the place of the Firmament in the setting, and when exactly the Nocturnals have showed up for the first time- as it would be the only constant event in all of Nox's contradicting stories. Were they in the Divine Revolution, fighting alongside their sibling Chosen? Or did they showed up only recently, coming with the Time of Tumult while speaking about a strange god which no one knows but the Maidens- and they aren't speaking.

[Iceblade44]

.

On the subject of the Curse- I was still working under the assumption that the Nocturnals have showed up after the Divine Rebellion. At any case, I think that some form of the Curse of Servitude would make the bet sense for them (as the Great Curse influence the passions of the Exalts, having them developing servitude toward their intimacies also makes a lot of sense). At any case, I wish to emphasis that the title Harlequins comes specifically due to their nature as "bound servants". Harlequins, after all, come from the Commedia dell Arte, serving as the "smart servant" of the play which, from one side, was forced to serve their idiotic master, and from the other used their trickery and intelligence in order to defeat their master and allow the Lovers to unite. They are also clowns, of course- but their trickery comes from their servitude, and the same should be true for the Nocturnals, IMO. We should also consider the Sidereal- Nocturnal bond- in 3e, the Solar- Lunar bond is a deliberate creation of the Exalts themselves, as a form of political marriage, and a result of the Sunstrife Wars. As such, it would make me surprised if the Nocturnals would have exactly the same type of bond such as the Lunars. Perhaps the Nocturnal bond is more of a manifestation of their "curse"- Nox has strong kinship toward his sisters, be it love or hate. Usually, when a Nocturnal has a passion toward another individual, it is a one sided connection- but when it is formed toward a Sidereal, the curse "resonates"- and is nullified. Nocturnals are bond to everyone and everything they care about- except to the Chosen of the Stars. It is not a bond as much as of a lack of servitude, and for someone so riddled with connections, the lack of bond is more important from its existence, as for the Nocturnals, it grants them what they yearn for the most- true freedom.

Thinking about it,(and rereading the pdf, since it's been a while and I had the feeling i misremembered some stuff in my above post, which I did.). Being the cunning jesters is very much a part of the whole package. I have of ideas of how that could work, as I'm not personally inclined to the Curse of Subservience as is, where it gives penalties and denials from the commands of Celestials who could be other players, which might not go swell. Honestly those fit better as Limit Break analogies, which is basically the only time I'm comfortable taking away my players control. Rather they are always able to do whatever action they wish but like a Limit Track once you go against certain conditions(which can be like, all Harlequins have an Intimacy of obey Celestials, when they encounter one like how the Lunar Bond is) and accumulate enough limit then you are forced to certain roles, basically Limit as it is in nut shell. Though more options may present itself when the Sidereal Great Curse is detailed which is apparently different. At also another thing about the Subseverance. I would be up to expanding it so that Nocs wont just be under Celestials because well discounting Sids that's just Lunars and Solars. Opening them up to say Dragon-blooded could be interesting, like a Noc were to align themselves with a whole bloodline of Dragons and serves them for generations, with few being the wiser with how Noc renewal works. I think that opens up some stories.

On the subject of Exaltation, having Nox himself choosing his Chosen does, of course, makes a lot of sense in 3e's setting. I'm still kind of a fan of Nox wearing the face of the possible future self of their Chosen, as it maintains the theme of time shenanigans and makes the Exaltation creepy- which I like. On Nox's origin, the reason that I think that having him a number of in-game origin stories which contradict each other is that it really works with his theme of possibilities- everything is true, as long as there is no evidence. Perhaps Nox actively tries to remove evidence for its existence, to make sure he won't be bound to a single possibility, and that he intentionally creates the many stories about his existence as a part of that process (which would really annoy his sisters). If Nox is still weaved into the Loom, I think that, like the Yozi's prison, freeing him should not be an option- just to make sure the game won't always evolve into "freeing our god from the cruel web of fate". We should also consider the place of the Firmament in the setting, and when exactly the Nocturnals have showed up for the first time- as it would be the only constant event in all of Nox's contradicting stories. Were they in the Divine Revolution, fighting alongside their sibling Chosen? Or did they showed up only recently, coming with the Time of Tumult while speaking about a strange god which no one knows but the Maidens- and they aren't speaking.

As for Nocturnals shows up, my suggestion that instead of just having them being kept imprisoned. They are instead were released in the First Age which was the purpose of the Curse of Subservience. Because the Incarnae no longer has the thing of being fearful of their Chosen, instead of being more connected with them. An idea of how Nocturnals worked, was that in the various eras and kingdoms of the first age, now and again certain mysterious miracle workers would show up. They would be recognizable as Exalted, but the nature unknown and mysterious. They would find themselves under the reigns of the Exalted Host and use the powers to show their leiges futures that could be, possibilities of what might have been. They would disappear along with the fall of kingdoms, though they would also appear again in the ages to come. Smiling and continuing on the same. Becoming unassuming in the background despite their weird powers. Or that's one idea anyway. They aren't the viziers the Sidereals were, the spokesman of Heaven's wishes to the Host. But rather jesters and actors that showed the Host dreams and ideas of something different and fascinating. Or at least that's what first popped into my mind. I think an important difference is that the Nocturnals shouldn't be seen as antagonistic to the role of the Sidereals. But compliments and show something different.

For the Firmament, not much good options there. Its basically the Nocturnals version of the Daystar and that's gone. Though on this topic if the Firmament becomes less of a thing there be a need to rerun the Empyrean Caste since their wouldn't be the Empyrean Wastes. I would be up to calling them Aethers if that happened, since that was a term used historically to talk about the space between stars.

[LostLight]

Thinking about it,(and rereading the pdf, since it's been a while and I had the feeling i misremembered some stuff in my above post, which I did.). Being the cunning jesters is very much a part of the whole package. I have of ideas of how that could work, as I'm not personally inclined to the Curse of Subservience as is, where it gives penalties and denials from the commands of Celestials who could be other players, which might not go swell. Honestly those fit better as Limit Break analogies, which is basically the only time I'm comfortable taking away my players control. Rather they are always able to do whatever action they wish but like a Limit Track once you go against certain conditions(which can be like, all Harlequins have an Intimacy of obey Celestials, when they encounter one like how the Lunar Bond is) and accumulate enough limit then you are forced to certain roles, basically Limit as it is in nut shell. Though more options may present itself when the Sidereal Great Curse is detailed which is apparently different. At also another thing about the Subseverance. I would be up to expanding it so that Nocs wont just be under Celestials because well discounting Sids that's just Lunars and Solars. Opening them up to say Dragon-blooded could be interesting, like a Noc were to align themselves with a whole bloodline of Dragons and serves them for generations, with few being the wiser with how Noc renewal works. I think that opens up some stories.

I think you misunderstood my suggestion- I didn't meant that the Curse would be that all Nocturnals have an intimacy toward Celestials. I meant that every Nocturnals would feel compelled to serve anyone (be it Celestial, Dragon Blooded, a god or even a regular mortal), toward which they have a strong intimacy- and stronger the intimacy, the more powerful the Curse. The only exception for this would be Sidereals, toward which they do not develop such a compulsion and are truly "free" with- some sort of a loophole in the Great Curse/Curse of Subservience that the Nocturnal Exalation

For the Firmament, not much good options there. Its basically the Nocturnals version of the Daystar and that's gone. Though on this topic if the Firmament becomes less of a thing there be a need to rerun the Empyrean Caste since their wouldn't be the Empyrean Wastes. I would be up to calling them Aethers if that happened, since that was a term used historically to talk about the space between stars.

I actually treat the Firmament as a new "realm of existence", such as Yu Shan, the Underworld and Malfeas- it is the realm above, of strange mysteries and possible futures, instead of a physical representation of "Nox". It would be a strange realm with strange beings, an abandoned wasteland of shattered stars and broken dreams. We could easily use it to make the setting more weird and mysterious, especially as, unlike the Daystar, it is a place- full with geography and denizens, instead of a weapon. In short, I think that unlike the Daystar and its like, the Firmament still has a place in 3e in its presentation of a different world.

Also, it has just occurred to me that while we like to think about the Nocturnals as the "quantum mechanics splat", in fact we could correspond each of the three "fate manipulating" splats to a certain quantum mechanics interpretation- Sidereals represents Bohemian Mechanics, where while the world seems random, all paths are already decided and fate is weaved, guiding individuals toward their pre-written story. Getimians are the Wavefunction Collapse, where during measurement whole universes are being erased from continuity, their information lost and existence removed. And Nocturnals are, of course, the Many Worlds interpretation, where all possibilities co-exist and flow next to each other, and it is only our limited minds which can grasp a single worldline instead of every possibility which was, is and will be.

Just something to think about.

[Epitome]

I actually treat the Firmament as a new "realm of existence", such as Yu Shan, the Underworld and Malfeas- it is the realm above, of strange mysteries and possible futures, instead of a physical representation of "Nox". It would be a strange realm with strange beings, an abandoned wasteland of shattered stars and broken dreams. We could easily use it to make the setting more weird and mysterious, especially as, unlike the Daystar, it is a place- full with geography and denizens, instead of a weapon. In short, I think that unlike the Daystar and its like, the Firmament still has a place in 3e in its presentation of a different world.

I like that. As a realm of existence, there could be a risk for the Firmament to overlap with the Wyld as The Weird Place, but maybe the Firmament is where time gets weird as opposed to the Wyld where matter gets weird. As to why it exists, maybe the Firmament act as a sort of Pole of Time, warding Creation from time aberrations that could slip in from the Wyld by trapping them like a net.

[Iceblade44]

I think you misunderstood my suggestion- I didn't meant that the Curse would be that all Nocturnals have an intimacy toward Celestials. I meant that every Nocturnals would feel compelled to serve anyone (be it Celestial, Dragon Blooded, a god or even a regular mortal), toward which they have a strong intimacy- and stronger the intimacy, the more powerful the Curse. The only exception for this would be Sidereals, toward which they do not develop such a compulsion and are truly "free" with- some sort of a loophole in the Great Curse/Curse of Subservience that the Nocturnal Exalation

Oh I get you, I was just mostly commenting on how the Curse worked before, rather then on you suggestion. I'm just curious on exactly how that compulsion to work. Well the most easiest way is probably doing something with the social system though I haven't thought how yet though it's a start.

I actually treat the Firmament as a new "realm of existence", such as Yu Shan, the Underworld and Malfeas- it is the realm above, of strange mysteries and possible futures, instead of a physical representation of "Nox". It would be a strange realm with strange beings, an abandoned wasteland of shattered stars and broken dreams. We could easily use it to make the setting more weird and mysterious, especially as, unlike the Daystar, it is a place- full with geography and denizens, instead of a weapon. In short, I think that unlike the Daystar and its like, the Firmament still has a place in 3e in its presentation of a different world.

Making a new Realm would probably fit, I'm just worried to not take it as it was previously where it was literally Creation's Sky. With Stars being Towers and everything made of Adamant. Though from what suggesting I don't think you are saying that either which I'm fine with. Though theres a lot to keep figure out if that's the case but I prefer it like this.

[LostLight]

Oh I get you, I was just mostly commenting on how the Curse worked before, rather then on you suggestion. I'm just curious on exactly how that compulsion to work. Well the most easiest way is probably doing something with the social system though I haven't thought how yet though it's a start.

Oh, I see. My personal view is that having the Nocturnals bound to the will of other Celestials while Dragon Blooded are not part of it is something which should indeed go out of the window- it only serves as presenting Celestials as the "bad guys" and DBs as "not true Exalts". Not to mention that with weird things such as Getimians, Liminals, Alchemicals and Exigents 9not to mention Hearteaters and their like), such a divide makes little to no sense in 3.

Making a new Realm would probably fit, I'm just worried to not take it as it was previously where it was literally Creation's Sky. With Stars being Towers and everything made of Adamant. Though from what suggesting I don't think you are saying that either which I'm fine with. Though theres a lot to keep figure out if that's the case but I prefer it like this.

Yeah, there is a lot to figure out about Nocturnals in general in 3e, hence the thread :P (but seriously though, the Firmament was really popular among Nocturnal fans from what I could gather, so adapting it to the setting would be a good idea. Not to mention that theory that someone thought about in the forums that "Across the Eight Directions" could perhaps be treated as an in-setting expression, where will nowadays refers to the eight directions of Creation, it originally referred to an eight divine realms- Yu Shan, Malfeas, the Underworld, the Wyld and Autochtonia serving as few of those. The Firmament could be one of those. Just a random thought).

[LostLight]

I like that. As a realm of existence, there could be a risk for the Firmament to overlap with the Wyld as The Weird Place, but maybe the Firmament is where time gets weird as opposed to the Wyld where matter gets weird. As to why it exists, maybe the Firmament act as a sort of Pole of Time, warding Creation from time aberrations that could slip in from the Wyld by trapping them like a net.

Sounds cool- while I will probably won't use the term "Pole of Time", having it as a timeless place were relics and remains of the ruined past and future dreams is a nice beginning. We do have a trapped legion of the Balorain Crusade in there already, after all.

[LostLight]

So a short sum up for what we need to work on for Nocturnal 3e update-

Chapter one: the Nocturnal Exalted- would include the history of the Nocturnals and Nox, which may include a number of possible in setting versions, due to Nox serving as the God of Possibilities, as well as what is really known about the Chosen of the Night (which seems to be that they showed up somewhere during the early First Age, either before or after the Divine Revolution). It would also include the Nocturnal Exaltation in details- what the Chosen feels, sees and experience, and well as the unique features of Nocturnal Exaltation (like their interaction with their Curse, or the whispers of Nox, etc, etc).

Chapter two: Midnight Carnival- a description of the Nocturnal society and their interactions with both each other and other Exalts. As the Nocturnals seems to be revised to show up during the First Age instead of being a modern phenomenon, they would have probably had enough time to develop society and such. If they are a modern creation, we should still consider their place in the world and ways they'll work with each other.

Chapter three: Nebular Theaters- for both Dragon- Blooded and Lunars there was a section about the civilizations based around the Exalts, and we know that Sijan would show up at either the Abyssal or Liminal books, which kinda makes me think that there should be a certain level of world building in splat books. However, the thing is that for Dragon Blooded, Lunars and Abyssals, such civilizations makes sense (the Realm as whole, Lunar Dominions and Shadowlands, correspondingly). In 2e, Nocturnals are not known to establish whole kingdoms around themselves. Perhaps that section should instead describe the Firmament? Or both a chapter for the Firmament and something about world-building, if there would be a really cool justification for why "Nocturnal civilizations" should exist, and how they would look like. Perhaps it could be a place to add some of the strange parallel worlds of Nox?

Chapter four: Character Creation- exactly what the title says. It should be very simple, once we'll somehow solve all other issues.

Chapter five: Traits- new merits and flaws, such as the new adaption for "Whispers" (the ability to hear Nox), Castes (together with Anima effects and attributes), description of the Curse of Subservience and the "Sidereal bond" (however they would turn up), and perhaps any other special features of the Nocturnal Exaltation. Should the Nocturnals still have Paradox, or should it be replaced with something unique to them? I personally think that their Curse should be enough, but who knows. We should also refer to the tendency of Nox to hide the existence of his Chosen- are they still hard to remember and track down, or perhaps that feature should be revised as well? We should also decide about signature characters, but there are more urgent issues.

Chapter six: Charms- the themes of the Nocturnal Charms should be well solidified at this section. We should remember that they are best around attributes, and that Charms are not magical spells- but expression of the most basic and primal power of the Exaltation. That is, Charms are things that the Nocturnal can do, instead of secret techniques. Keywords should be assigned and decided in order to fully bring forth those themes. As their power level is that of a Celestial, they should be more or less comparable to Lunars/ Sidereals.

Chapter seven: Martial Arts and Sorcery- we would probably need to work on some special Martial Arts styles which express the Nocturnal nature at its finest, as well as some spells and perhaps Initiations/ Shaping Rituals. Things which come from the Nocturnal culture and nature and express the best their role as Champions and the Night and Chosen of Possibilities, Heralds and Harlequins. We are still waiting for the rules for Necromancy, so no need to decide how well they know the dark arts- but their are probably able to reach Celestial Sorcery. While they are unable to learn Sidereal Martial Arts in 2e, should it still be the case in 3e? (I don't really think they should, but I would want to hear what others think).

Chapter eight: Forged From Night- Evocations and artifacts, as well as deciding exactly how the Nocturnals work Evocations and if their have some affinity to some material or neutral to all, as well as if they have an ability to "trick" that affinity (see my and Epitome's suggestions about the subject).

Chapter nine: Wishes in the Dark- Fluctuations and their capabilities in 3e.

Chapter ten: Heralds and Harlequins- example Nocturnal NPCs of importance in the Time of Tumult.

Anything else we should add to the list?

[Epitome]

A Storytelling chapter like there was in the 2E pdf could be very useful. It could discuss types of games you can run with Nocturnals Protagonists, present how to use them as Antagonists, suggest ways the ST can play out the bits of Lore that are left intentionally vague, and include information about the Manvantara and the 6th Caste in the event those things make the transition to 3E.

[Iceblade44]

I think thats plenty enough for an outline. As for what its about.

I to think that Noc's shouldn't have SMA, mainly as Attribute Exalts that would make them to broken, and frankly I don't want to make them to similar to Sids and Gets just because their connected to them. Though we still don't know why Gets are able to get SMA I don't see that as much justification for Nocturnals to get them. We will see. For the rest of the chapter, all of that will probably have to be created flat-out since I don't remember them getting any in the previous time by RO and co. So thats another thing that Exigents will be helpful with.

Paradox, I don't know. For one thing I think having it makes it more likely for Sid vs Noc conflicts to happen, and I'm unsure whether that would be a good thing. And thats also something I think could probably be what Getimians is about but again I don't know.

As for Civilizations, I don't think Nocturnals should get stuff as iconic as Lunar Dominions but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get anything. Creation is a big big place, much of it still empty. adding more shit won't hurt it much, well as long as it fits with the others, and I think it would be fun to see what type of factions develop among the Night's Chosen. How much would they be independent, and how many have found themselves under another Exalts command. I also think that if you are gonna include the Firmament that would be a good place to put it, how and why its a realm, whether it interacts with the rest like Yu Shan, what you can expect there and Caelain City, which would probably make a nice center of Nocturnal activity, as much as Great Forks is to Exigents.

And lastly, talking about the Nocturnals Charm keywords, looking over on the pdf. One thing I can certainly say is that I think that got a bit to many so yeah they probably should be revised. Personally I think the one relating to Calibration is to specific to be practical, that and I think Nox shouldn't be made God of Calibration again. Mostly because I feel that should be Five Day's Darkness thing. I think that is fine as is. Or thats how I think anyway