What did the mountainfolk and dragon kings stand to gain from the Rebellion?

[Blackwell]

It just seems so naive to expect anything much better. Best case scenario life goes on more or less as before

For what it's worth, there's a bigger tonal change in 3e that makes it a bit more sensible; 3e has moved pretty hard away from portrayals of "the Exalted" as any kind of monolithic group.

The 1e story was "All Jadeborn aided The Exalted Host in the Primordial War, and after the war All Jadeborn were crippled and banished because the alternative was being wiped out by The Exalted Host."

In 3e version, I expect a story that reads more like Elrond presenting Anduril to Aragorn or Brokkr and Sindri crafting Mjolnir. The eventual Exile of the Jadeborn feel more like the tragic falling out between fire-forged friends who find themselves at odds after the war ends. One Exalt misses his old Jadeborn friend but doesn't know why he suddenly stopped visiting. Another never met a Jadeborn and doesn't know them except from stories other Exalts tell. I'm much more interested in that than some boring "stronger government discards weaker ally when they are no longer useful" realpolitik thing.

Exactly. What was there to gain? They kept doing their thing. Why risk nothing for minimal gain. The Exalted at least rushed everything for everything

Again, I think this makes more sense if you think about individual Dragon Kings making individual decisions based on their own beliefs and incentives, rather than as a country choosing to throw everything it has into a hopeless cause.

[mark2]

The way you say this makes it sound like a revelation to you that people living under a government where the head of state has absolute power and can do whatever they want are slaves. Why do you think there are so few countries left in the world that tolerate such nonsense as a leader with totally unchecked power? A slave is a slave even if they don't live somewhere they are likely to get their master's direct attention since it isn't like they need to be within arms reach to mandate abuses be rained upon you as amused them.

Yeah, they cared so little about it that they actively aided in a rebellion against them.

It is not the same. Being a merchant in some town in the roman empire or whatever was not the same as being a slave. The word slavery has some very specific definitions That's what i mean.
Besides, in the context of Exalted, it is not relevant. The Sun did NOT turn Yu-Shan into a democracy. He replaced one Holy Tyrant with another

Yeah, but this was also not a thing that had happened before, so in a complete absence of prior history or evidence to the contrary the possibility of a better situation is not the worst concept. As also noted their patrons were in favor of their, so depending on what the individual faction was being asked to do the options would have also included potentially going into opposition of your patron.



Not running afoul of the whims of the other Primordials. Honestly, going with the bit in 2e on how the other Primordials liked trashing Autochthon's stuff I would not be surprised if the Jadefolk were not occaisionaly targets, or at the least fellow sufferers of having their stuff broken.

Remember that dragon king civilization and interaction with other civilizations went on for million of years. Concepts like game theory, rational self-interest, realism, etc should not have been alien to them.


And that's the problem. I guess it's possible that every 10,000 years the primordials the primordials held a competition about who would kill the most Jadeborn, but we do not know

Based on every single thing that has been written, life for those two groups seems to have been relatively good

The books talk quite a bit about what humanity as a whole stood to gain. It was not self-government. It was a less horrific environment. In real life terms, this reminds of the story of how Truman was warned that West Germany might join the east: because the East's citizens had, at the time, more calories per day. Perfectly rational. That normal humans were always going to be pets was never in question(ok most likely the gods did not phrase it like that, but everyone who thought rationally about it should have seen it coming)
It's just that the cage of the primordials was rotten, whereas the new one would be (literally) gold. And silver.

But we were never once given a concrete reason about why these two races joined in other than they did, take our word for it.

I can easily explain why the Lintha remained loyal. They defended their place in Creation etc.

From a human perspective the pragmatic argument for rebellion would be "fight so grandpa has better healthcare, so that we live longer, so that we are under the authority of superbeings that have a human mindset etc"

But the Jadeborn gained what? Was there some primordial favored race living nearby that had access to a huge oil, ehh i mean essence pool that they were promised ownership of by the incarna, in case of success?

[JohnDoe244]

2E devoted a lot of word-count to side-fluff... but not really enough word count to answer questions like this.

3E and 1E don't really address the nitty gritty of five thousand plus years ago.

What we know is that the Dragon Kings venerated the Unconquered Sun above all others, and the Sun waged war against the Primordials (who were tyrannical masters). They followed the Sun into war. If you want to tell a story about a Drgaon King who thinks that was a mistake and that life was better under the Primordials then (in 3E at least) I think that's a valid take. But they literally built their entire civilisation (including in 2E sacrifice of people's hearts) around the Sun, and the Primordials literally upended reality on a whim. I don't see it as a stretch as them following the most Holy of Holies into war. The Primordials are specifically called out as recognising the Dragon Kings as a threat to them and their power. It's not ants attacking elephants, it's a plucky colony in the Americas rising up against the world's greatest super power and somehow winning (the Exalted would be France in this analogy, only a France that does ask for land instead of a promise that the Dragon-Americans would lend a hand in the fight against tyranny). The Dragon Kings didn't risk everything for Solar Rule. They were devoted to the Sun, allied to the Sun's chosen, and enemies of a vast and powerful oppressive tyrant. They personally shepherded humanity and mentored the Exalted. They weren't blind to the horrors of Primordial rule. They have plenty of reason to go to war, not for the sake of the Solars, but for themselves and their god.

Unfortunately, the war absolutely devastated them. And in 2E, the Solars grew in power and hubris, cursed by the dying words of the Neverborn to become just as tyrannical as those they overthrew. But George Washington didn't forsee the Patriot Act. We're talking about events separated by thousands of years.

"Why did King Richard fight the Crusades if Britain was just going to give the land to the Ashkenazi Jews after WW2?"

Likewise, the Jadeborn were literally Autobot's chosen people. They based their entire culture (2E) around him, and the Primordials were mercilessly shitty toward their prime god. They funnelled war material to their god's creations to overthrow tyrants... because of the literal Word of God telling them to. This is Burning Bush, "Noah, go and build an ark", God is literally standing in front of you telling you to do something. You do it.

Why would you expect the breaking of the Jadeborn and the Great Geas? After WW2, the USA didn't nuke the capital cities of the Allied powers to establish itself as the dominant Hyper Power. Instead the USA gave money to the defeated Axis powers to help them rebuild.

"Of course the Solars immediately turned on their allies so their god lobotimised them! That's just game theory!"

Eh. It's not unrealistic, but most folks aren't Machiavelli. Immediately betraying your allies after a devastating war isn't typical behaviour. It makes sense in the story space Exalted is operating in. It makes sense with the Great Curse. But I don't think the Jadeborn were dumb to not forsee their allies betraying them.

3E presents the First Age as being a plurity of different factions viaing for dominance (rather than Queen Merela with her boot on Creation's neck until the Heirophant usurps her). I would expect the situation to be more nuanced than 3E presented it.

What did they hope to gain?

Autobot was the lowest of the Primordials. After the war he would be highest or second highest. I imagine that would have come with perks for his chosen people.

The Dragon Kings literally devoted their entire society to a slave. A slave who would now be king. As beings of spirit as much as flesh, I can see how that would be appealing.

[Mizu]

It is not the same. Being a merchant in some town in the roman empire or whatever was not the same as being a slave. The word slavery has some very specific definitions That's what i mean.
Besides, in the context of Exalted, it is not relevant. The Sun did NOT turn Yu-Shan into a democracy. He replaced one Holy Tyrant with another






Remember that dragon king civilization and interaction with other civilizations went on for million of years. Concepts like game theory, rational self-interest, realism, etc should not have been alien to them.


And that's the problem. I guess it's possible that every 10,000 years the primordials the primordials held a competition about who would kill the most Jadeborn, but we do not know

Based on every single thing that has been written, life for those two groups seems to have been relatively good

The books talk quite a bit about what humanity as a whole stood to gain. It was not self-government. It was a less horrific environment. In real life terms, this reminds of the story of how Truman was warned that West Germany might join the east: because the East's citizens had, at the time, more calories per day. Perfectly rational. That normal humans were always going to be pets was never in question(ok most likely the gods did not phrase it like that, but everyone who thought rationally about it should have seen it coming)
It's just that the cage of the primordials was rotten, whereas the new one would be (literally) gold. And silver.

But we were never once given a concrete reason about why these two races joined in other than they did, take our word for it.

I can easily explain why the Lintha remained loyal. They defended their place in Creation etc.

From a human perspective the pragmatic argument for rebellion would be "fight so grandpa has better healthcare, so that we live longer, so that we are under the authority of superbeings that have a human mindset etc"

But the Jadeborn gained what? Was there some primordial favored race living nearby that had access to a huge oil, ehh i mean essence pool that they were promised ownership of by the incarna, in case of success?

See, here is where you are making your mistake. Rather then looking for something reiterating that they lived under the same condition humans did you should be looking for the (much shorter on word count) part saying that their bad treatment of humans was unique and that other races had it different from them. Do you see anything like that?

Though that is just in the Dragon King's case, in the Jadeborn's case we know that the other Primordials especially loved to screw with Autobot's things and that the Jadeborn are considered to be among his things then add 2+2 to get 4 (Jadeborn were also treated like shit).

[Blackwell]

They personally shepherded humanity and mentored the Exalted.
...
The Dragon Kings literally devoted their entire society to a slave. A slave who would now be king. As beings of spirit as much as flesh, I can see how that would be appealing.

Extending this just a bit, from the Dragon King's perspective.

The Dragon Kings have a flourishing, technologically and spiritually advanced society. They're worshipping the Sun, who is literally the best, and generally surviving the forces of nature that are the Primordials. Then the Primordials go ahead and make these weird mostly-hairless sentient mammals (by reverse-engineering the First of the Mountain Folk, though the DKs probably don't know this). There are things the Primordials like about these new "humans", but they're far too lowly to manage directly and likely to get themselves wiped out without adult supervision. So, the Primordials give dominion over the humans to the Dragon Kings.

(note, I expect in the 3e version the DKs probably asserted dominion rather than being granted it, but the point stands)

The Dragon Kings are, in their way, enlightened and sophisticated; their society may be somewhat brutal to our thinking, but it isn't inherently capricious or cruel. So for the most part they take reasonably good care (as they see it) of the humans, teaching them skills and values. It's not all sunshine and rainbows; some of the humans are treated like sheep by callous shepherds, some live more like skilled Roman domestic slaves. Some human communities probably lived more or less independently, paying occasional fealty to distant reptilian masters.

Until one day the Sun makes it known that the vassal/servant/slave race the Dragon Kings have been overseeing is actually the lynchpin in a plan to overthrow the vast and alien Primordials (what a twist!) and make the Sun ruler of all Creation. The best humans are being Chosen as vessels for divine might, his and that of the other Incarnae and the Dragons, all of whom are venerated by the DKs even if not as their primary focus of adoration.

Particularly cruel Dragon Kings are probably overthrown by humans Exalting in their midst, but for the most part the Chosen eventually rally at the hubs of human civilization... which also happen to be the cities of the most enlightened Dragon Kings. War is coming, and it's happening on the Dragon Kings' back porch. Neutrality isn't an option; even inaction would be picking a side.

So here's the choice the Dragon Kings were really facing. They can support the new super-powered humans, with whom they have a shared history and culture. Or they can side with the alien forces of nature what are the Primordials. The former requires some societal reform to stop thinking of humans as universally lesser, the latter means turning their backs on their religion and entire way of life.

What was the obvious choice, again?

[Epimetheus]

I feel like people forget that the Mountain folk probably didn't have a choice. Either they help their creator and survive or they end up like his last created race and get sucked up before they can reveal the plan to the other primordials. It was going to happen and it's better to be on the winning side then dead.

[pcontop]

Has it ever happened though? I.e rebelling so that another slave group can be your new masters? In real life i mean. The best i can think is Washington promising slaves freedom if they fight against the british, but the dragon kings/mountain folk were never the literal slaves of the primordials. Based on every book that has ever been published,anyway

I meant it in the sense that many of the colonials wanted to be ruled by the local aristocracy than the more distant one, which is more alien to their realities. So, in the sense that the Primordials are pretty alien, it makes more sense to join the Incarna side instead of the Primordials.

[Aquillion]

I think it was who they owed direct fealty to that tipped the scales.

The Dragon Kings were devoted (still are) to The Unconquered Sun (I think this was the case even before the Rebellion), and the Mountainfolk were thralls/creations of Autochthon, both of whom were on the side of the gods during the Rebellion.

Calling the Mountain Folk thralls isn't fair at all. He treated them well, especially before the war - they were by all accounts his favored creations. That doesn't mean he was perfect in that regard, but many of his problems were the results of his own limitations (ie. when they asked him the meaning of life he sort of shrugged and said "crafting?" because that was his answer and he didn't have anything else.)

Also I disagree with the argument that the Mountain Folk are necessarily worse off than they would have been without the rebellion. Things didn't go great for them, sure, but things weren't going great for them before, either. One of the main reasons that Autocthon supported the rebellion was because the other Primordials kept destroying his creations; it is easy to see how this would be a point of particular concern to the Mountain Folk. And while they got reduced and that sucked, they have, by most accounts, been spared the majority of other upheavals to hit Creation; most accounts of the pre-Primordial War era implied that it saw far more frequent and destructive upheavals, at least from the perspective of non-Primordials.

If anything the Mountain Folk were the people with the most investment in the war - there was no immediate, personal threat to Autochthon, Gaia, or the Incarnae, and while humanity suffered we have no reason to think they were about to be destroyed; they were at least useful as prayer-vessels, which might have ensured that some humans survived somewhere. But we know the other Primordials frequently destroyed Autochthon's creations, directly and intentionally, which means the Mountain Folk could reasonably expect that their choices were "overthrow the Primordials" or "die." In fact, it's not really an exaggeration to say that part of the reason Autochthon supported the rebellion was for their sakes.

This also answers for the Dragon Kings to an extent; yes, they have nearly died out, but pre-rebellion Creation was a constant churn where races were created and then genocided freely by the Primordials, with only Autocthon and the Incarnae really objecting (and Autocthon unambiguously wasn't even powerful enough to protect his own creations, that's the whole reason he created Exalted.) There's no guarantee that the Dragon Kings would have survived the next wave of genocides, even with the UCS protecting them.

Beyond that the Dragon Kings had little choice once the UCS chose to rebel. He was their only patron as far as we know, and in the Primordial era, having a strong patron was necessary to avoid rapidly being annihilated when the whims of the Primordials changed. It is extremely likely that the Dragon Kings would have been annihilated as punishment for the rebellion of their patron regardless of whether they joined in or not, and even if they weren't intentionally annihilated for that reason at the time it is unlikely they would have survived much longer with nobody in power caring about them. So they didn't really have a choice.

The same goes for the Mountain Folk. If the Rebellion had somehow failed, they would have definitely been annihilated - they probably would have been annihilated during the war itself as punishment for Autochthon if they didn't defend themselves, since his favor towards them was well-known. And again, even if the Primordials somehow decided not to destroy them during or immediately after the war, his defeat would have doomed them in the long term since they depended on his patronage to not simply be annihilated whenever a Primordial swept through the area and decided to remake it.

Finally, it's important to remember that they couldn't see the future - they didn't have the corebook or something. The Dragon Kings likely didn't expect the degree of losses they suffered. The Mountain Folk didn't anticipate the Exalted going crazy. Both of them probably expected more voice in the new order - they had no real benchmark for how powerful the Exalted were or how much the Incarnae would favor them.

[Isator Levi]

I'm inclined to imagine the Primordial War more in terms of complex and messy history, in which case, while the Dragon Kings were still induced by the commands of the Unconquered Sun, they initially regarded the thing in terms where they would be rising to assume supremacy in Creation with the Solars as their loyal champions (which a great many of them kind of genuinely were).

Then the Primoridials hit them with that series of devastating attacks that destroyed most of them beyond reincarnation. Set them on the defensive for some time.

When the Exalted Host relieved them, you've gotten to a point where they've sunk too much into this deal to change sides even assuming the Primordials would accept them, even though the metrics have changed significantly.

[ThomasM]

Finally, it's important to remember that they couldn't see the future - they didn't have the corebook or something. The Dragon Kings likely didn't expect the degree of losses they suffered. The Mountain Folk didn't anticipate the Exalted going crazy. Both of them probably expected more voice in the new order - they had no real benchmark for how powerful the Exalted were or how much the Incarnae would favor them.

So much this^!

Mark2, your argument seems based around a player level of knowledge that these character, particularly non-player-character could never have had. It's like asking why some Native American tribes sided with the colonists against the British considering what the American government would eventually do. Simply put, they had hope that things would work out for them. Even more simply put, they did what they did and that's that.

[Jefepato]

The Primordials were (and are) basically insane from the perspective of the mortal races. Dragon Kings may not think exactly like humans, but they think a lot more like humans than like Primordials. Same for the Mountain Folk.

I would rather be ruled by someone with whom I have something in common (even if they're assholes), than by a couple dozen titans who are not only all insane, but whose particular brands of insanity work at cross-purposes.

Locking the Yozis in Malfeas made Creation a better place for everyone who isn't a Yozi.

(There's also the fact that their respective patrons, the Unconquered Sun and Autochthon, were already on board with the plan.)

[mark2]

See, here is where you are making your mistake. Rather then looking for something reiterating that they lived under the same condition humans did you should be looking for the (much shorter on word count) part saying that their bad treatment of humans was unique and that other races had it different from them. Do you see anything like that?

Though that is just in the Dragon King's case, in the Jadeborn's case we know that the other Primordials especially loved to screw with Autobot's things and that the Jadeborn are considered to be among his things then add 2+2 to get 4 (Jadeborn were also treated like shit).

Remember that when we say life sucked for humans, it does not mean that the primordials personally attacked them. Were it so, none would have survived. The titans back then were more uncaring that deliberately cruel. So humans were at the bottom of the food chain, whereas the dragon kings were precisely not that.

Like i am not saying that the primordials were kind to them. Merely that they were much better equipped to survive indirect contact with the aftermath of whatever they were doing at that time

The Primordials were (and are) basically insane from the perspective of the mortal races. Dragon Kings may not think exactly like humans, but they think a lot more like humans than like Primordials. Same for the Mountain Folk.

I would rather be ruled by someone with whom I have something in common (even if they're assholes), than by a couple dozen titans who are not only all insane, but whose particular brands of insanity work at cross-purposes.

Locking the Yozis in Malfeas made Creation a better place for everyone who isn't a Yozi.

(There's also the fact that their respective patrons, the Unconquered Sun and Autochthon, were already on board with the plan.)

I suspect that the Lintha and the Alaun would object, save for the fact that they were genocided

Likewise, the Jadeborn book more or less says " the jadeborn are against infernalism because the Yozis are mad and broken, but if someone could restore them to their former majesty they might consider backing him up precisely because of how the exalted "rewarded" them

So much this^!

Mark2, your argument seems based around a player level of knowledge that these character, particularly non-player-character could never have had. It's like asking why some Native American tribes sided with the colonists against the British considering what the American government would eventually do. Simply put, they had hope that things would work out for them. Even more simply put, they did what they did and that's that.

Right, but the american revolution happened in 1775(right?) The native tribes had been losing for a long long time. Meanwhile, the dragon kings were at their apex

[Isator Levi]

Right, but the american revolution happened in 1775(right?) The native tribes had been losing for a long long time.

This is a really simplified to the point of being actually kind of inaccurate take on the status of varied Native American tribes and confederacies and their relations to the colonial powers and colonies themselves at that time in history.

Like, making alliances with the rebels (and with the British) implies the longstanding institution of political and economic discourse between those neighbours, as well as a history of having cooperated in military matters. Not least of which was the preceding war that the colonies felt prompted to rebel over being legislated into helping pay for.

[BrilliantRain]

My understanding is that the Primordials were more akin to mobile natural disasters than they were rulers. When your god shows up and says "Hey, you wanna not have to worry about the River of All Torments randomly destroying your city anymore?" very few people aren't going to be at least somewhat on board for that.

[Erinys]

My understanding is that the Primordials were more akin to mobile natural disasters than they were rulers. When your god shows up and says "Hey, you wanna not have to worry about the River of All Torments randomly destroying your city anymore?" very few people aren't going to be at least somewhat on board for that.

Yes. 2E described when one day Szoreny decided to become a reflection of Adrian and go for a stroll, in which he annihilated at least one city of 10 million people (or was it 10 billion? I forget). The implication seemed to be that Adrian did that sort of thing all the time, and when Szoreny did it, it was not unusual, or only unusual because he wasn't Adrian herself. It's likely that the other Primordials behaved in similar ways. Consider the havoc Isidoros or Oramus could cause just by stomping on an inhabited country. Consider the way Kimbery treated even her favorites, in addition to being an ocean of acid who liked to drown anything and anyone that didn't meet her impossible demands.

The problem of Primordials genociding even their own favored races, after they got bored with them, was a threat facing everyone who wasn't a Primordial or one of their souls. The lucky ones were "merely" imprisoned in the Beneath and slowly mutated by the weird energies down there.



I'll also add some more on the likely perspective of the DKs and Jadeborn:

To the Dragon Kings, when their civiliation was intact, dying and coming back as a mindless animal/dinosaur was a vacation from adult responsibility. Death, for them, was nothing like death for us. They fought and killed each other all the time for fun and as a form of sun-worship, and enjoyed having their hearts ripped out and sacrificed to the Unconquered Sun. I'm sure they expected to die a lot in battle for the glory of the Unconquered Sun, and from their perspective it would differ from their previous wars in his name only in being vastly more epic and exciting. Their devotion to him was not a quiet intellectual theology, it was an active devotion of killing and dying and dinosaur/human sacrifice and holy war in his name. The Primordial War probably looked like a natural extension of their religion, and the Solar Exalted were (and still are) seen as intensely holy figures in their religion. Surely, they did not expect the vast majority of them to have their souls destroyed beyond any hope of reincarnation.

And if they refused to support the Unconquered Sun's rebellion? Best case scenario, the gods and Exalted win, the DKs survive but are rejected by their divine patron and hated by everyone in power forever.



For the Jadeborn, consider their progenitor, the Firstborn. He was the son of Autochthon and the progenitor of the rest of the Jadeborn. He was their Adam and Eve, except without any kind of Fall. He was the immortal lord and father of them all. And the Primordials abducted him, vivisected and tortured and mutilated him, turned him inside out, ripped up his soul, and left him alive as an unrecognizably mutilated blob of bubbly clay. And his children only found out about it second-hand, because they never saw him again. That was a pretty personal attack on the Jadeborn as a people, and in addition to what others have said: as Autochthon's creations, they were probably the butt of lots more deliberate cruelty.