Understanding Liminals and Getimians

[Corradus]

So, I've recently returned to the Exalted fold and decided the best way to approach 3rd Edition is to throw out everything I learned in the last 2 editions and start fresh. So I sat down a few days ago and started reading through the main rulebook right from the beginning.

And while I appreciate and admire many of the small and subtle changes made so far, I find myself scratching my head at the emergence of the three new types of Exalt, and I was wondering if you guys could help me understand them a little more.

I mean, to be honest though, the Exigent Exalts aren't *really* all that hard to understand - both in and out of game. We have all had those players who just - for whatever reason - don't identify with the Lunar/Solar/DB/Abyssal/Sidereal structure and/or they can't bring themselves to color inside the lines and it's probably a good idea to have them Exalted *from* the little gods rather than make them spirits or little Gods themselves. In the end, I would prefer that in a game like Exalted, people be *some* sort of Exalt. So that's cool. Not too much real mystery there.

Now we go on the the Liminals, who I can wrap my head around conceptually - I think. These are beings who've been cobbled together physically from different bodies and are supposed to...there I get a bit fuzzy. Can someone tell me (like you were explaining it to a complete dunce) What the LIminal are meant to do and (if anybody knows) what was the idea *behind* their creation? Were they originally created to fill some sort of niche in the current ecosystem of Creation? Some gap in the original five-fold order?

And if the Liminal Exalted are somewhat mystifying to me, the Getimian's current information borders on good old fashioned Borgstromancy. Exalts who dwell in constant awareness of realities that never came to be? Sounds really tragic - but what do they *do*? And more to the point, why did somebody decide Creation needed them? Again, does anybody have any insight into the Dev's motivation for including them?

I'm not hostile to new Exalts per se - it's just that I can explain All the other Exalts to new players in One sentence - maybe two - and those sentences won't be really complicated per se. As it stands now, I'm not sure I can do that with The Liminals and Getimians and I was hoping you guys could help me with that.

[Lioness]

Liminals and Getimian were originally envisioned as foils for Abyssals and Sidereals respectively to highlight aspects of those splats that had previously been ignored.

Sidereals had been subsumed by their faction conflict and it was unclear how they maintained fate or what would happen if they stopped and Abyssals, despite having the Underworld as a place of strength had little reason to ever go there. Like individual Storytellers could find their own answers for these problems but that still didn't address that the general shape of their games tended towards the stories that involved other Exalts.

[Blaque]

...
I mean, to be honest though, the Exigent Exalts aren't *really* all that hard to understand - both in and out of game. We have all had those players who just - for whatever reason - don't identify with the Lunar/Solar/DB/Abyssal/Sidereal structure and/or they can't bring themselves to color inside the lines and it's probably a good idea to have them Exalted *from* the little gods rather than make them spirits or little Gods themselves. In the end, I would prefer that in a game like Exalted, people be *some* sort of Exalt. So that's cool. Not too much real mystery there.

To expand on them a bit. Folks did like things like Devil Tigers in Infernals, but it kind of created a situation where it actively detracted from Infenrals (as it suddenly becmae the Be Another Exalt theme than really dobulingd own on well, Hell themes). And it creates a bit of a bridge for homebrewers between a Martial Arts style and a full-on splat ala Dragon-Blooded or Solars. I'd say at least these are kind of as important as the other bits you mention.

Basically having a Misc. Category Exalts is generally like, a good practice.

Now we go on the the Liminals, who I can wrap my head around conceptually - I think. These are beings who've been cobbled together physically from different bodies and are supposed to...there I get a bit fuzzy. Can someone tell me (like you were explaining it to a complete dunce) What the LIminal are meant to do and (if anybody knows) what was the idea *behind* their creation? Were they originally created to fill some sort of niche in the current ecosystem of Creation? Some gap in the original five-fold order?

Liminals have a couple reasons they exist. I'm going to go over what they are in character first (the Watsonian take). And then go over why they are out of character (the Doylist take).

So, in-setting, the origins of Liminals is still kind of vague. We know form what is in the text and dev comments that a Liminal is what happens when someone tries to bring someone back from the dead, and gets something else isntead. The corpse animates, gets powers, and is bound to the creator and its instinctive needs to interact with death and the dead. The body is not the perosn brought back to life. Their souls have moved on. They are the meat animated again and imbued with a new conciousness and Exaltation. What awakens them is something we only know as the Dark Mother, an entity that exists in what the Underworld was before the titans found it and made it what it is in relation to Creation.

A bit of a difference of understanding the Underworld is that in 3e it is not something that came to being when the things that became the Neverborn died. It was there in some form before history began, but what that was, exactly, is nto clear. There's actually a bit of fiction hinting at this in 1e, where the Underworld was like a spoider's web where a fly crashes into it, twists it up, and it no longer a web. The Underworld as it is is managled. And notably: What happened to the spider? They first showed-up around the Shogunate, after the rise of the Deathlords. And kind of instincutlaly try to keep order in the line of life and death. So destroying hungry ghosts, hunting especially mean necromancers, or serving as a bridge between death and life as best they can.

The out-of-character aspects are a fewfold. First, simply, the devs of late 2e wer given the challenge to create Prometheans (ala Chronicles of Darkness) in Creation. So they draw on the similar idea of being beings created from failed ressurection and the disassociation of body and mind that pertains to. That's like, the simplest bt. They are to Created like Lunars are to Fera or Abyssals to Kindred. Notably, though they do fork pretty hard from there, much like the other splats do.You see this in their kind of "play loop". While a Promethean is trying to find hunaity thorugh their alchemcial Refinements, Liminals are creatures both alive and dead trying to bridge the gap between them. They're much more "necromantic" in theems and aesthetic than I feel Created are.

The other Doylist thing going on in the setting is kind of focus. Something 3e made a point of with splats (though admittedly I feel not clealry with Solars) was to make sure that while they are broad, they are still nailed-down in a few themes. So for example, Lunar Exalted are shapeshifters, and are great at it. But they're a particular kind of shapeshifter. Notably they turn into human and animals. They don't turn into rocks, they don't do Reed Richards stretching, and so on. There are things in setting that can do that, but Lunars aren't trying ot be every single "shapeshifter" trope. Instead, they are a set of clear ones.

Now Abyssals actually did have the "All undead stuff under the sun" to them. They ahd vampiric, zombie, revenant, lich, specter, and all that. THey were the liminal ones who were both alive and dead who straddled th eline. But htey alsow ere badass necromancer overlords. They were beatiful vampires or lich monsters....and also flesh-eating cannibals and splatterpunk. And notably, all of this was couched in their general "heel" qualities of being dark, edgy expression of Solar power. While also being really the only splat that like...gave a shit to interact with the Undewrold in anything but an antagonistic light. And even then....were in a sort of antaongistic light anyhow. So in this context, Liminals do a couple htings.

First, they kind of give more angles to approach the Underworld with. They're for play on par with Dragon-Blooded, so while powerful, less world-shattering. They allow going into depth about how the unique way death and dying work in Creaiton's setting. And due to being more in the well, meditaor role, can do so while having to worry about its threats and its alienness with a bit of a "playing by their terms" feel than the usual Abyssal dominaiton of these things. It also presents angles foa n Underworld that can be dangerous but not necessarily hostile. THis allows Abyssals, in contrast, to double-down on well, their strengths. Being Death's Lawgivers, serving the powers of the Deathlords, and generally haivng the "Badass wearing balck" things more as their thing. They can still do the reflecitve on life and eath and mediator stuff, but it's a differnece in being a dominating power versus inbetween guy.

The second is actually powerwise. Liminals kind of offload a lot of the splatterpunk, body horror, and gore stuff of Abysslas into a new context that turns out you can build a whole splat of powers out of. And still be left with the themes of Power, Shadow, Death, Darkness, and all the other Badass Dark Lord stuff that Abyssals had going. It allows Abyssals to have a focused, clearer set of themes, and the things they couldn't quite touch could still be picked-up and explored with Liminals.

And if the Liminal Exalted are somewhat mystifying to me, the Getimian's current information borders on good old fashioned Borgstromancy. Exalts who dwell in constant awareness of realities that never came to be? Sounds really tragic - but what do they *do*? And more to the point, why did somebody decide Creation needed them? Again, does anybody have any insight into the Dev's motivation for including them?...

The Watsonian take is basically their creators tried something weird, it got weird, they didn't like it. The basic way they interact with things is yeha, they never were born. Their Origin never happened. It's likebeing in It's a Wonderful Life and you'll never get to go to the good reality where you mattered, saved the town, and were important. You were robbed of your existance and you see the consequences of that. As to what you do, the options they show are a fewfold. Try to make things rihgt. You could do it again. Or make it so it always was enough if you push things enough. You can fight Heaven for revenge. Or do things to get back what's yours. Or you can just kind of accept your new fate and see what you can do with what wasn't there with cool glitch magic.

The why they are out of character is a few things. Originally, it was to give Sidereals a bit something clearer in the sense of outright enemy sabotage story, versus the incidental Lunar or Solar hostiltiy through on the ground stuff. A peer Exalt that was a foil in the sense of something that played in the same high concept space Sidereals mess with and directly attacking wht Sidereals carea bout in a cool Fighting Over Reality thing. They have Daoist and alchemy themes too con contrast with the Sidereals astrologer and Journey to the West stuff. Shaolin v. Wutang. MI6 v. Specter. Those sort of things.

Originally the prior devs didn't plan much save them being kind of a weird NPC splat that you used for that War in Heaven stuff. But the current devs saw th epotential of a full Circle of Getimians and so developed them out. THey still have some inherent foil with Sidereals, but due to how they are also about upheavla and kind of being spooky reality-warpers and a bit of a revoutionary vibe, do have fun potential in interactions wiht Solars, Lunars, or Dragon-Blooded too. So they fleshed them out more fully into a full splat we know now. They honeslty to me are the most "superfluous" Exalt in that the setting probably didn't like, need them per se. But htey're pretty cool I think for just allowing cool powers and themes other Exalts don't. Notably the reality-bending in ways that are a bit more outright about "ripping relaity apart and doing screwy to it in ways that are unnerving" versus Sidereals "I know the weird secrest sand use the rules that are there, just obscure" things.

For all three new Exalts, there's also a bit with how to an extent, there was a want to break-up Exaltation to be Celesital Exalted + Dragon-Blooded. ANd then Alchemicals, who were this weird "Not the prior cateogires, gbut Celetail Exalted of mechanics that care becuase no one wants to be a DB." Liminals and Getimians having very not-Celestial origins helps breaks things up. Exigents having the variety of implmentaitons does that further. It helps make Exaltation more diverse by well....bieng more diverse with Exaltation.

[Corradus]

Wow Blaque, thank you. That helped a lot.

[Baaldam]

On a little aside, speaking of "XX is what happens when someone tries to bring someone back from the dead, and gets something else instead" reminded of FMA's Homunculi and now i ask myself how much would they actually mesh or clash with Liminals themes.

Or maybe some sort of analog to Pandorans from PtC, perhaps. Just randomly musing really,


Plus, it reminded of a little bit of 2e lore that could be a very interesting monkeywrench of sorts to games with or without Liminals.

[Lioness]

Possibly also of some analog to Pandorans from PtC, too.

Yeah, in my game I've established that sometimes one of the Neverborn or a Hekatonkhire answers when there's a resurrection attempt and the result isn't pretty.

[Baaldam]

Yeah, in my game I've established that sometimes one of the Neverborn or a Hekatonkhire answers when there's a resurrection attempt and the result isn't pretty.

Sounds fun, tempts me considerably to mess around with adapting Prometheans' Disquiet mechanics (though i guess Abyssal Ressonance is close aplenty as it was).

[Isator Levi]

If Liminal Exalted are inspired by Promethean then I think that for the moment the closest thing that they have to Pandorans is what becomes of them if they do not have a living person with whom they have that profound spiritual connection.

[Baaldam]

If Liminal Exalted are inspired by Promethean then I think that for the moment the closest thing that they have to Pandorans is what becomes of them if they do not have a living person with whom they have that profound spiritual connection.

Good point - has there been any discussion of the kind of changes this causes in the Liminal and their potential as antagonists?

[marin]

Good point - has there been any discussion of the kind of changes this causes in the Liminal and their potential as antagonists?

Only in the Essence manuscript. If they lose that connection, whether through neglect, resolution, or death of the living person, all living creatures start to shun them instinctively, and the following occurs:

Decomposition reduces the Liminal to a shambling corpse or hungry ghost within one lunar month. They lose another Intimacy per week, and can no longer use Undying [their ability to resurrect as long as their brain is intact]. They also decompose cosmetically, per the player’s aesthetic choice. The Liminal can still anchor her Thread of Life to a mortal within this time. If she does, decomposition stops and she heals. Liminals of Essence 3+ may anchor themselves to an Exalt within their Circle, or to another powerful entity.

[Baaldam]

Only in the Essence manuscript. If they lose that connection, whether through neglect, resolution, or death of the living person, all living creatures start to shun them instinctively, and the following occurs:

The fact that resolution of that connection can have the same consequences as neglect or death of the living person, that is peculiar indeed, as an aside, something to explore the implications of in the future perhaps.

Hmmm, looking like the loss of an anchor makes them degenerate, not only mentally but possibly in a power level perspective too, as the loss of the Undying capacity itself seems to imply the "reduction to a shambling corpse or hungry ghost" of liminals that stay "untethered" beyond the lunar month limit might be farther than skin deep.


Damn, now i'm having the terrible, horrible idea of a group of veteran liminals manipulated/brainwashed/tricked into becoming the honor guard/harem/etc of a funeral god, Nephwrack, Abyssal or other high powered possible necromancer. Ok, that's some definite antagonist fodder to tinker with.

[Baaldam]

As an aside, the idea of Mother Bog and her children crafted of corpses parts, mud, wood and sorcery having some form of connection fallen Liminals or the Dark Mother herself just crossed my mind. Worth hitting the books to brainstorm things i guess.

[AnubisXy]

As an aside, the idea of Mother Bog and her children crafted of corpses parts, mud, wood and sorcery having some form of connection fallen Liminals or the Dark Mother herself just crossed my mind. Worth hitting the books to brainstorm things i guess.

I would expect that she has ended up creating a Liminal or two over the centuries, even if it wasn't on purpose.

[marin]

The fact that resolution of that connection can have the same consequences as neglect or death of the living person, that is peculiar indeed, as an aside, something to explore the implications of in the future perhaps.

Mm. There's a line in the Essence Liminals writeup that if a Liminal's connection is abusive, then breaking that connection through healing has the same effect as neglect/death, which I summarised as 'resolution'.

[Isator Levi]

I would expect that she has ended up creating a Liminal or two over the centuries, even if it wasn't on purpose.

What Aspect would they be?