3E Deathlords

[marin]

Wanting people to know soul-crushing despair before they die is still well within Killfuck Soulshitter territory. You're not going to do it by being nice, unless you add in some kind of horrific twist about how or why you've been being "nice", kind of like Abridged Frieza contemplating what to do when immortal. The key thing is that the Neverborn are still lashing out at the living and demanding that their servants do the same, so one has to question how much really changes. Maybe it smooths off some of the rough edges like the opening comic of MoEP: Abyssals or certain "sins of life", but the obligations of the deathlords and deathknights are still compelling them to loom over the setting as existential threats.

Vance has said that out of universe they want Abyssal villainy to be more Byronic than Killfuck Soulshitter, and that's the motive for introducing the chivalry of death.

As for the reality behind it, the issue is that the Deathlords are bothering with the Neverborn's agenda at all, and in doing so making themselves existential threats, right?

It occurs it may be a matter of threat prioritization; the Deathlords are acting in pursuit of an agenda that's ultimately inimical to all life, no matter how reluctant they are about it, and that in this view should make them OOC the primary threat.

That... I can't help with.

[AnubisXy]

It occurs it may be a matter of threat prioritization; the Deathlords are acting in pursuit of an agenda that's ultimately inimical to all life, no matter how reluctant they are about it, and that in this view should make them OOC the primary threat.

Yeah, they may not be an immediate threat, but clearly any sort of alliance with the Deathlords should be made with the understanding that eventually they'll turn on you to carry on with their agenda of destroying the universe. As a Celestial Exalt who will live for thousands of years, it's very possible that you could end up coming to blows with that friendly Deathlord eventually. Even as a Dragon Blooded, sure you'll probably be dead before that happens, but your children or their children or their children's children will end up having to fight against the Deathlords. And sure, in real life people ignore problems and then drop those huge problems into the laps of their progeny, but it's still something worth considering.

[Isator Levi]

You're not going to do it by being nice, unless you add in some kind of horrific twist about how or why you've been being "nice"

Does that "unless" not spark your imagination? One of the first things that comes to my mind is the image of somebody who very gently leads a person through a number of parables and rhetorical arguments intended to help their listeners come to an understanding that hope is a cruel delusion that they'd be better off letting go of.

Maybe it smooths off some of the rough edges like the opening comic of MoEP: Abyssals or certain "sins of life", but the obligations of the deathlords and deathknights are still compelling them to loom over the setting as existential threats.

I don't think being an existential threat is a bad thing so long as it has some nuance and room to breathe, and isn't turning stories in the setting into trying to avert an eschaton every year.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Does that "unless" not spark your imagination? One of the first things that comes to my mind is the image of somebody who very gently leads a person through a number of parables and rhetorical arguments intended to help their listeners come to an understanding that hope is a cruel delusion that they'd be better off letting go of.

I'm rather burnt out on that, to be quite frank. It was theoretically the position that they had in 2e; the only difference is that 2e was often extremely ham-handed with it, and would often skip steps that might make it not feel like a diabolus ex machina. So, if the only thing that changes is better pacing, it seems we're still in a very similar model of boat.

I don't think being an existential threat is a bad thing so long as it has some nuance and room to breathe, and isn't turning stories in the setting into trying to avert an eschaton every year.

But it does eventually rocket toward the end that the 1e developer expressed roughly 20 years ago - everyone jockeys for position while the lights go out. Any eschatons require a lot of caution signs (like here!), because a lot of fantasy fiction has trained people to insert "save the world" plots into wherever, instead of concentrating on getting revenge against a city's organized crime ring or showing up a rival sorcerer. While you do see ominous dooms in pulp swords and sorcery, its my impression that they tend to go along with the Dying Earth genre, which is a rather far cry from the state that Creation is actually in.

[Asmodai]

Does that "unless" not spark your imagination? One of the first things that comes to my mind is the image of somebody who very gently leads a person through a number of parables and rhetorical arguments intended to help their listeners come to an understanding that hope is a cruel delusion that they'd be better off letting go of.

I don't think being an existential threat is a bad thing so long as it has some nuance and room to breathe, and isn't turning stories in the setting into trying to avert an eschaton every year.

That unless isn't really different from killfuck soulshitter, though. They're still destroying the world to see it suffer, they're just more original about it. How is that a creature you want slinking around the world and how is that not going to trigger all the "baddie" signals in the players heads? Heck, they're gonna hate him even more, because mind fuckery tends to be hated by players even more than casual murder.

[Isator Levi]

But it does eventually rocket toward the end that the 1e developer expressed roughly 20 years ago - everyone jockeys for position while the lights go out. Any eschatons require a lot of caution signs (like here!), because a lot of fantasy fiction has trained people to insert "save the world" plots into wherever, instead of concentrating on getting revenge against a city's organized crime ring or showing up a rival sorcerer. While you do see ominous dooms in pulp swords and sorcery, its my impression that they tend to go along with the Dying Earth genre, which is a rather far cry from the state that Creation is actually in.

The very first line of the Introduction chapter in the Third Edition core is "it has been said that Creation is doomed". Like it or not, some of that tone is still included in the foundations of the setting's themes. I should think that it makes sense for the Abyssal Exalted and their Deathlords to have some of their hooks in those themes.

And sure, somebody needs to strike a balance between making it feel as though the setting is faced with existential threats and the validity of varying other concerns. I think given that we are... three Exalted types books in, one has a basis to evaluate whether or not they're doing that well. My perspective is that they are, that the books about the Dragon-Blooded, Lunars, and Sidereals are walking that line with "the downfall of the Realm as the agendas of the Lunars ramp up and the Solars return, while Abyssal and Infernal Exalted enter the fray, places the world on a trajectory that may end in irrevocable ruin" on the one side and "religious commune around a hermit and zoning disputes in the divine city" on the other. I expect no different from when we actually get more details on how Abyssals are entering that fray.

Actually, one thing that I think could be a little different is that when we see a more comprehensive picture of Abyssals it will appear that their perspective on what it means for the world to end is more comprehensive. Like, causing everything to explode at once is the artless way to do it, you've got to wear down the desire to live in the personal and intimate manner of one soul at a time. And maybe also some Abyssals who are like "it's not my fault that the downfall of the Realm as the agendas of the Lunars ramp up and the Solars return has doomed Creation, but if it is doomed then I shall at least preside over that doom for whichever of the several reasons that might make sense to my death-gripped heart".

That unless isn't really different from killfuck soulshitter, though. They're still destroying the world to see it suffer

I'm not proposing a person who is lying about the idea that hope is a delusion.

How is that a creature you want slinking around the world and how is that not going to trigger all the "baddie" signals in the players heads? Heck, they're gonna hate him even more, because mind fuckery tends to be hated by players even more than casual murder.

I mean, it's something that I want slinking around the world because I want the world to be dramatic, and I'm more interested in seeing the characters and cultures within in terms of many and varied perspectives rather than whom I might condemn; otherwise I'd have to write off... all of them, literally all of them. How can a person possibly play a member of the Scarlet Dynasty under those circumstances?

Players are ultimately free to approach NPCs any way they wish, although I would hope that somewhere in the fandom there's room for people who would be fascinated by such things and carry that into the character somewhat, or at least might grapple with a moral dilemma of how they might react if it should be that the Abyssal in question only ever talks to people.

"Mind fuckery." Is Listener-Swaying Argument mind fuckery? Is using the social influence system to leverage a person's Principle of opposition to the Realm into taking part in a dangerous war against it mind fuckery? Is using it to create that Intimacy in the first place? Lunars can commit terrible crimes and then convince the masses that somebody else did it and rile up their desire to pursue and punish that person, which isn't even a Psyche effect, how can you ever feel safe in the presence of a Changing Moon Caste?

[Saur Ops Specialist]

The very first line of the Introduction chapter in the Third Edition core is "it has been said that Creation is doomed". Like it or not, some of that tone is still included in the foundations of the setting's themes. I should think that it makes sense for the Abyssal Exalted and their Deathlords to have some of their hooks in those themes.

It's difficult to shake that the "it has been said" implies "...by the Neverborn, who are bitter and full of shit." Certainly, that has been a tack taken for some time.

And sure, somebody needs to strike a balance between making it feel as though the setting is faced with existential threats and the validity of varying other concerns. I think given that we are... three Exalted types books in, one has a basis to evaluate whether or not they're doing that well. My perspective is that they are, that the books about the Dragon-Blooded, Lunars, and Sidereals are walking that line with "the downfall of the Realm as the agendas of the Lunars ramp up and the Solars return, while Abyssal and Infernal Exalted enter the fray, places the world on a trajectory that may end in irrevocable ruin" on the one side and "religious commune around a hermit and zoning disputes in the divine city" on the other. I expect no different from when we actually get more details on how Abyssals are entering that fray.

Actually, one thing that I think could be a little different is that when we see a more comprehensive picture of Abyssals it will appear that their perspective on what it means for the world to end is more comprehensive. Like, causing everything to explode at once is the artless way to do it, you've got to wear down the desire to live in the personal and intimate manner of one soul at a time. And maybe also some Abyssals who are like "it's not my fault that the downfall of the Realm as the agendas of the Lunars ramp up and the Solars return has doomed Creation, but if it is doomed then I shall at least preside over that doom for whichever of the several reasons that might make sense to my death-gripped heart".

Yet, even the supposedly inevitable collapse of the Realm was dialed back by the time Lunars shaped up, so I heard. It's a thing that requires more effort, and not a backslide that will definitely happen and doom the Realm in particular. There's also no divine toe-tag on Lookshy in this edition.

I'm not proposing a person who is lying about the idea that hope is a delusion.

I'm sure that Lysanderoth really believes what he says, but it's also really obvious what he's trying to do, so who would just stand around and listen?

[Blaque]

As for keeping Abyssals and the Deathlords connected to the Neverborn instead of overhauling it....pacts with things at the bottom of the universe are intersting. Pacts with ones that are inscrutible, asleep, hurt, and cosmic in nature are also pretty cool, honeslty. To me a lot of the thing wiht 3e is not just the Byronic versus Killfuck stuff, it's also just generally there's something interesting with stories of people doing things they don't like, and don't, as a whole, get all the rules for.

It's kind of a unqiue spot in Exalted compared to other Exalts, where even the Yozis and Autochthon to an extent can be communciated with, or in Getimians case, the general weirdness is by actionsl ong ago by Laplace's Demon working with a being who sees All the Waveform. And hte Neverborn having a bit of "Making sure you keep your end of the deal" in a way that's unique to them for in part the flash you ge tout of it.

[Isator Levi]

My main perspective is that I think one of the most compelling ideas of Exalted is when it takes that premise of how people living through times of the worst sort of social upheaval tend to feel as though the world is literally ending, and then makes that actually how things work. Like, it has always been a setting with the idea that instability in society starts causing reality to dissolve.

I think it was a mistake to ever move away from that presentation of how Creation might end and into the more straightforward "people are too distracted to man the walls against the otherworldly forces seeking to end it most directly". Or at least... so unambiguously, since setting aside the dead and Hell there's an important role for the Fair Folk there.

The important thing is that I would think in a setting with such a Sword of Damocles hanging over it, there would be value in figures like the Deathlords with some insight into and investment in how it might fall, wrapped in a lot of the other things the Underworld has going for it like the aesthetics of death and what those say about the value of living.

I'll also say that when I advocate for things like this, I'm not advocating for that being the only angle of the Abyssal Exalted. I think the facet where they're basically okay with living doesn't really need somebody to speak for it, and the more fatalistic stuff requires more argument to get a seat at the table. I want the Abyssals to ultimately get a fairly wide umbrella, that can include ones most concerned for being champions of the dead as they currently exist, presiding over an end they view as inevitable, actively seeking an end they view as preferable, and just plain being people having lives of intrigue and adventure while wielding dark knight powers.

Deathlords become somewhat narrower because it isn't their story.

[Isator Levi]

I'm sure that Lysanderoth really believes what he says, but it's also really obvious what he's trying to do, so who would just stand around and listen?

Probably people who have around on forums where the term "black pill" is in vogue, before they go out and shoot a bunch of people and then themselves. Nobody there even has magic that literally makes it necessary for people to stop and listen to them.

That's me arguing the bad side of it out of annoyance at what I perceive as a "No True Scotsman" fallacy. The side where I think you could have a character with a sophisticated and comprehensive philosophy of hopelessness and despair that they express with sincerity is mostly coming from the direction of "pulp fantasy fiction look at what they do with living in cities of perpetual night and shit", although I think there are a few real life philosophers who have been similar. I vaguely recall a 10th century Arab who proposed that having children was immoral because who are you to decide to inflict life upon them.

Probably never the most popular people, but again, allowances made for the fiction and with acknowledgement of the magic.

[Asmodai]

The very first line of the Introduction chapter in the Third Edition core is "it has been said that Creation is doomed". Like it or not, some of that tone is still included in the foundations of the setting's themes. I should think that it makes sense for the Abyssal Exalted and their Deathlords to have some of their hooks in those themes.

...

I'm not proposing a person who is lying about the idea that hope is a delusion.

That doesn't make them any better. They reinforce the "... its has been said" and as such are an enemy to what Creation could be.

I mean, it's something that I want slinking around the world because I want the world to be dramatic, and I'm more interested in seeing the characters and cultures within in terms of many and varied perspectives rather than whom I might condemn; otherwise I'd have to write off... all of them, literally all of them. How can a person possibly play a member of the Scarlet Dynasty under those circumstances?

Players are ultimately free to approach NPCs any way they wish, although I would hope that somewhere in the fandom there's room for people who would be fascinated by such things and carry that into the character somewhat, or at least might grapple with a moral dilemma of how they might react if it should be that the Abyssal in question only ever talks to people.

"Mind fuckery." Is Listener-Swaying Argument mind fuckery? Is using the social influence system to leverage a person's Principle of opposition to the Realm into taking part in a dangerous war against it mind fuckery? Is using it to create that Intimacy in the first place? Lunars can commit terrible crimes and then convince the masses that somebody else did it and rile up their desire to pursue and punish that person, which isn't even a Psyche effect, how can you ever feel safe in the presence of a Changing Moon Caste?

Imperialism is a facet of our history and a product of who humanity is. Empires have marked the history of mankind and relationships between nations, and empires should still be relevant and interesting in a game about a mythic age. Especially a broken one. Just because a system is unfair doesn't mean that it's worse than the annihilation of life and destruction of hope. A world under imperial boot can always change for the better. A world without Hope (or life) cannot.

Some people are very sensitive to things that take away from free-will and choice. Especially when they make people think that "it's fine" no matter what they would think about it otherwise.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Probably people who have around on forums where the term "black pill" is in vogue, before they go out and shoot a bunch of people and then themselves. Nobody there even has magic that literally makes it necessary for people to stop and listen to them.

That's me arguing the bad side of it out of annoyance at what I perceive as a "No True Scotsman" fallacy. The side where I think you could have a character with a sophisticated and comprehensive philosophy of hopelessness and despair that they express with sincerity is mostly coming from the direction of "pulp fantasy fiction look at what they do with living in cities of perpetual night and shit", although I think there are a few real life philosophers who have been similar. I vaguely recall a 10th century Arab who proposed that having children was immoral because who are you to decide to inflict life upon them.

Probably never the most popular people, but again, allowances made for the fiction and with acknowledgement of the magic.

Being stochastic terrorists of Creation just seals their being the Antagonist Splat. Again. I wonder if they'll get into competitions with Infernals over that spot...

[Isator Levi]

That doesn't make them any better.

It makes them more nuanced and sophisticated than a buzzword criticism that seems not so much an insight into something as a way of putting people on the defensive.

Imperialism is a facet of our history and a product of who humanity is. Empires have marked the history of mankind and relationships between nations, and empires should still be relevant and interesting in a game about a mythic age. Especially a broken one. Just because a system is unfair doesn't mean that it's worse than the annihilation of life and destruction of hope. A world under imperial boot can always change for the better. A world without Hope (or life) cannot.

So, what, it's viable to play a member of the Scarlet Dynasty because one feels assured by the idea that some decades or centuries after inhabiting the role of a member of House Cynis, slavery might be abolished on the Blessed Isle?

Some people are very sensitive to things that take away from free-will and choice. Especially when they make people think that "it's fine" no matter what they would think about it otherwise.

That has to be reconciled to the fact that there's a social system, and Charms that empower it, in some fashion.

Being stochastic terrorists of Creation just seals their being the Antagonist Splat. Again. I wonder if they'll get into competitions with Infernals over that spot...

You are not acknowledging about half of what I have said just in the post that you have quoted and almost nothing in the one preceding that.

[Asmodai]

It makes them more nuanced and sophisticated than a buzzword criticism that seems not so much an insight into something as a way of putting people on the defensive.

I'm all for interesting characters, byronic tragedies, redemption and relishing being the agent of nothing. But at the end of day they were made ot make sure the world dies horribly and that's their main problem. In 2E it was especially keen on beating you over the head with that. I find Liminals as a much more interesting concept in a similar space than the fact that you have a whole (actually TWO) group of Exalted that are all about being nihilistic destroyers, even if they claim they don't want to.

So, what, it's viable to play a member of the Scarlet Dynasty because one feels assured by the idea that some decades or centuries after inhabiting the role of a member of House Cynis, slavery might be abolished on the Blessed Isle?

No, you play a member of the Scarlet Dynasty because you want to play them. It's the same for the Abyssals, but at least the design space of the Dragon Blooded gives you a whole gamut of options and endgames unlike the one for the Abyssals so far.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

You are not acknowledging about half of what I have said just in the post that you have quoted and almost nothing in the one preceding that.

You know what you call a gloomy figure presiding over the ending of things that they hope is for the best?

Saturn and her Chosen.

Abyssals are a markedly different sort, but the ending that they've been associated with is not really a preferable or healthy one. It's an irrevocable doom, from which there is no renewal. All because it's what the Deathlords made them for, because they made a pact with the Neverborn, because the baggage of Wraith got used for a big bad. So, there needs to be a change on the level of the baggage of Wraith that gets used for Exalted, because Oblivion inherently has an inescapable narrative gravity on par with the end prophecies of Mork Borg, apologies for not spending the time to place the umlauts.

And sure, there are plenty of stories about impossible heroism in the face of the end times, but simply even placing the prospect of a certain end in the narrative curves the narrative toward it. If you're not moving toward it, you have to really put effort into not mentioning it. Really, that should be the book's job; treat the certain dooms the way that this edition treated least gods, and address it by never mentioning that the setting is doomed.