Long-time Player, New to Exalted 3rd Edition

[Tyzerg]

Hey everyone,

I've been playing Exalted since the 1st edition core but I never got a chance to reallly play ex3 until about 6 months or so ago. Since then, I've had a lot of issues with the Solar charm set. I've rewritten a lot of it (basically just condensing the bloat) but a lot of it just seems awful. For instance, an I missing something or is Melee just hands down the best defensive tree even though it also is the arguably the best offensive tree as well.

I have a lot of questions so I figured I'd ask them in my own thread so not to bug the devs (who seem to be busy now) or fill the forum with one question at a time.

First question: By my reading of Reflex Sidestep Technique, this is the only way to get "access" to your dodge charms during an ambush as the ambush renders your def inapplicable. Therefore, you can't apply dodge charms to the ambush as you can't apply your Evasion. This would make 7SE inapplicable even though it is trying really hard to be applicable.

But, for some reason HGD can bypass ambushes for 4m?

So, which is it? Can I use 7SE on ambushes or can't I? If I can't, why is HGD the greatest charm in the book?

Tyzerg

[Asmodai]

If it makes you feel any better, after a year of fighting with E3, my table just went back to E1. I am kinda hoping Essence works better for us, though.

[HighPriest]

1. HGD is weaker in the scenario where you don't have enough initiative to buy off the damage successes. So it isn't great right after resetting to base initiative, for example, when non-Dawns only have a couple of initiative to buy off damage or hit crash.
2. Even if you do have the initiative, particularly devastating attacks with 10ish or whatever successes would be very expensive to buy off with HGD, but the same flat cost for 7SE.
3. HGD can't be used at all in crash, as it is Perilous, while 7SE can.
4. Technically, HGD can't be activated in response to Withering attacks, while 7SE could be. Of course, I'd be wary of blowing a once-per-scene perfect defense against a withering attack, but it's theoretically an option...

That said, assuming that you have the initiative to buy off the attack successes, yes, I would agree that HGD is the stronger charm, especially since I don't think I ever saw 7SE get successfully reset. But as you've already mentioned, Dodge has another Charm dedicated to ambushes, so a serious Dodge-er has the option to buy both.

I would also second Asmodai's suggestion that if you've struggled this long with 3E and it still isn't working for you, you should at least consider going back to another edition or waiting in the hope for Essence to work out better. I tried for a very long time to hammer 3E into a shape that my group could enjoy and it was a pretty thankless task compared the relative simplicity of reverting to another ruleset that worked better for us.

[Lioness]

I don't think ambushes are necessarily something you need a hard answer to.
The main time surprise attacks get upgraded to ambushes without specific charms is when you've not only failed to spot the unseen enemy but also lost a join battle roll and well, that's normally a sign of bigger problems.

[HighPriest]

I don't think ambushes are necessarily something you need a hard answer to.
The main time surprise attacks get upgraded to ambushes without specific charms is when you've not only failed to spot the unseen enemy but also lost a join battle roll and well, that's normally a sign of bigger problems.

Considering that both Join Battle and opposing Stealth are rolls for the same ability, most characters with an Awareness of 0 or 1 are probably going to be beaten by a stealth guy in both of them. Of the QC mortals, even the conscript has 5 in both Stealth and Join Battle, more than enough to beat many low Awareness PCs reliably - and that's by the guy with the concept of "I just got handed a spear for the first time", not "pro assassin" or even "experienced bandit".

That said, it isn't as likely to be lethal in 3E, since combat is really hard to resolve with one damage roll, even if it's unopposed.

Personally, I'd prioritize maxing out Awareness before worrying about anti-ambush Charms, but that's before you start considering actual assassins - Stealth 9, Join Battle 7, which can be rough for a lot of PCs to beat at either.

[Lioness]

Considering that both Join Battle and opposing Stealth are rolls for the same ability, most characters with an Awareness of 0 or 1 are probably going to be beaten by a stealth guy in both of them.

True, but the typical game experience is that you'll be with a circle with other player characters who presumably will at least have a fighting character with at least peak mortal reflexes.

[BogMod]

Hey everyone,

I've been playing Exalted since the 1st edition core but I never got a chance to reallly play ex3 until about 6 months or so ago. Since then, I've had a lot of issues with the Solar charm set. I've rewritten a lot of it (basically just condensing the bloat) but a lot of it just seems awful. For instance, an I missing something or is Melee just hands down the best defensive tree even though it also is the arguably the best offensive tree as well.

Tyzerg

Melee always seemed if not as good better than dodge for defence in those prior editions too I found?

[Tyzerg]

1. HGD is weaker in the scenario where you don't have enough initiative to buy off the damage successes. So it isn't great right after resetting to base initiative, for example, when non-Dawns only have a couple of initiative to buy off damage or hit crash.
2. Even if you do have the initiative, particularly devastating attacks with 10ish or whatever successes would be very expensive to buy off with HGD, but the same flat cost for 7SE.
3. HGD can't be used at all in crash, as it is Perilous, while 7SE can.
4. Technically, HGD can't be activated in response to Withering attacks, while 7SE could be. Of course, I'd be wary of blowing a once-per-scene perfect defense against a withering attack, but it's theoretically an option...

That said, assuming that you have the initiative to buy off the attack successes, yes, I would agree that HGD is the stronger charm, especially since I don't think I ever saw 7SE get successfully reset. But as you've already mentioned, Dodge has another Charm dedicated to ambushes, so a serious Dodge-er has the option to buy both.

I would also second Asmodai's suggestion that if you've struggled this long with 3E and it still isn't working for you, you should at least consider going back to another edition or waiting in the hope for Essence to work out better. I tried for a very long time to hammer 3E into a shape that my group could enjoy and it was a pretty thankless task compared the relative simplicity of reverting to another ruleset that worked better for us.

Those are all valid weaknesses to HGD but yeah I think my main gripe is that it acts like three separate Dodge charms (Reflex Sidestep, 7SE, and Vaporous Division) in one Melee charm. IMO that should be reversed as dodge is way more specific in its application. Also, it seems that the common equation to the Solar charms is that 1 initiative = 4m, as in the difference in costs of VD and HGD. Does this seem balanced? I changed the cost to 3m in VD and have not seen any abuse yet. The reason I bring this up is that Reed in the Wind costs 2 init for every 1m in comparison to an excellency so why does the VD cost 8 times more than HGD for the same effect (4m to 1init)? Am I mathing wrong on that?

Tyzerg

[Tyzerg]

Melee always seemed if not as good better than dodge for defence in those prior editions too I found?

Yeah, but at least in 2nd edition you could add your essence to your dodge score. Also, it seems like almost every effect in the book is undodgeable but easily blockable in this edition for some reason. Multiple spells and Charms have this listing for no reason. I'm pretty sure it's easier to dodge behind a rock against Cascade of Cutting Terror than it is to samurai slash dozens of blades coming at you but according to Holden and Morke, that's a no. I don't get why this edition seems to be hellbent on making dodge awful.

[Tyzerg]

I don't think ambushes are necessarily something you need a hard answer to.
The main time surprise attacks get upgraded to ambushes without specific charms is when you've not only failed to spot the unseen enemy but also lost a join battle roll and well, that's normally a sign of bigger problems.

So, I'm not misreading Ambushes then, correct? It's pretty terribly spelled out but by saying your defense is set to 0, that means that you can't apply defensive charms as well? Because the only place I've seen that backed up is in Reflex Sidestep. And the only place that straight up says it can be used against ambushes is RST and HGD, and HGD works automatically while RST is a bitch to get to work (especially the higher your Evasion score which also makes ZERO sense, but oh well).

So you'd have to somehow get your Evasion back to 5 (I'm assuming if you give a shit about dodge you'd be there) just to use 7SE, but HGD is just an easy 4m which completely renders ambush builds pointless btw. Once again, for some reason Dodge seems to get the shaft even though it should be better at getting out of the way of such things.

I guess the only thing that would stop it is if you attacked an HGD guy while his sword was sheathed? Would that work?

Tyzerg

[HighPriest]

Those are all valid weaknesses to HGD but yeah I think my main gripe is that it acts like three separate Dodge charms (Reflex Sidestep, 7SE, and Vaporous Division) in one Melee charm. IMO that should be reversed as dodge is way more specific in its application. Also, it seems that the common equation to the Solar charms is that 1 initiative = 4m, as in the difference in costs of VD and HGD. Does this seem balanced? I changed the cost to 3m in VD and have not seen any abuse yet. The reason I bring this up is that Reed in the Wind costs 2 init for every 1m in comparison to an excellency so why does the VD cost 8 times more than HGD for the same effect (4m to 1init)? Am I mathing wrong on that?

Tyzerg

You are indeed mathing wrong. Partially because you are doing at least one math thing wrong, but far more importantly, because you assume the designers were considering mote/initiative efficiency exchange rate when writing Charms.

You can spend 2m on an Excellency to raise a static value like DV by 1. By the basic application of Reed, spending 2i increases Evasion by 1. So, in this case, 1 initiative is worth a little more than 1 mote, as activating Reed also raises the cap on your potential DV by your Essence - a potential benefit, but I don't think it's enough to radically alter efficiency for this discussion. Let's call it 1:1.

Next, HGD isn't just an initiative cost for the damage cancelling effect - it's 4 motes flat cost plus 1 initiative per damage cancelled. Because part of HGD's cost is variable and part is flat, it's impossible to set a simple mote to initiative cost between HGD and VD - VD is 1i cheaper at 1 blocked success, then VD is paying 4 motes for 2i, then 8 motes for 3i, 12 motes for 4i... by those conversions, 1i starts at literally worthless at 1i=0, and attempts to reach 1i to 4m, but will never quite get there because math.

So, we have 1i=1m, 1i=0, 1i=2m, and 1i is slightly under 4m, derived from looking at just a few Charms. I'm sure we can find other exchange rates given even a little bit of effort, but I think that proves the point.

In other words, as far as I can tell, there isn't any balanced conversion cost between initiative and motes. Trying to assign one is just going to drive you crazy because you're assuming that sort of thing was being carefully considered during design, but if it was, it isn't really well reflected in the final product.

Math aside, I'd say that I think Dodge Charms overall should be better. Dodge has always felt underwhelming to me. It's theoretically valuable as a Charm tree that punishes attackers by draining their initiative and sucking it up for your use, but in a game with transparent mechanics where attackers know that's going to happen after they've taken a first swing, most opponents are just going to attack any other available targets and the Dodge Supernal is just going to sit there and not get attacked. If you're focusing on Dodge as your primary combat ability, you definitely still need a good offensive ability that will force your opponent to consider you a threat... that said, this has always been the case in Exalted, so it isn't really anything new.

At least part of your specific problem at the moment seems to be that HGD is a weird, badly written, badly balanced Charm with too many different benefits for different costs. It's been referred to as "Word Soup" in another now-ancient thread on the subject, and I think there's good reason for that. If you think it's trying to act like 3 different Charms, I'd suggest that the easiest fix would be to cut it up into three different Charms.

[Lioness]

I guess the only thing that would stop it is if you attacked an HGD guy while his sword was sheathed? Would that work?

For me the important question is who's the player character in this situation.

It's reasonable to say a character can't employ a defensive melee charm when they don't have a melee weapon. It's my opinion that HGD mentioning unexpected attacks was future proofing against magic that gives attacks the properties of an ambush rather than allow a Solar being able to parry an assassin's dagger while asleep in their bed despite their sword being all the way across the room.

However, people are substantially less reasonable when it's their character on the line and they can't technically defend themselves because their sword is on their hip.

[Tyzerg]

You are indeed mathing wrong. Partially because you are doing at least one math thing wrong, but far more importantly, because you assume the designers were considering mote/initiative efficiency exchange rate when writing Charms.

You can spend 2m on an Excellency to raise a static value like DV by 1. By the basic application of Reed, spending 2i increases Evasion by 1. So, in this case, 1 initiative is worth a little more than 1 mote, as activating Reed also raises the cap on your potential DV by your Essence - a potential benefit, but I don't think it's enough to radically alter efficiency for this discussion. Let's call it 1:1.

Next, HGD isn't just an initiative cost for the damage cancelling effect - it's 4 motes flat cost plus 1 initiative per damage cancelled. Because part of HGD's cost is variable and part is flat, it's impossible to set a simple mote to initiative cost between HGD and VD - VD is 1i cheaper at 1 blocked success, then VD is paying 4 motes for 2i, then 8 motes for 3i, 12 motes for 4i... by those conversions, 1i starts at literally worthless at 1i=0, and attempts to reach 1i to 4m, but will never quite get there because math.

So, we have 1i=1m, 1i=0, 1i=2m, and 1i is slightly under 4m, derived from looking at just a few Charms. I'm sure we can find other exchange rates given even a little bit of effort, but I think that proves the point.

In other words, as far as I can tell, there isn't any balanced conversion cost between initiative and motes. Trying to assign one is just going to drive you crazy because you're assuming that sort of thing was being carefully considered during design, but if it was, it isn't really well reflected in the final product.

Math aside, I'd say that I think Dodge Charms overall should be better. Dodge has always felt underwhelming to me. It's theoretically valuable as a Charm tree that punishes attackers by draining their initiative and sucking it up for your use, but in a game with transparent mechanics where attackers know that's going to happen after they've taken a first swing, most opponents are just going to attack any other available targets and the Dodge Supernal is just going to sit there and not get attacked. If you're focusing on Dodge as your primary combat ability, you definitely still need a good offensive ability that will force your opponent to consider you a threat... that said, this has always been the case in Exalted, so it isn't really anything new.

At least part of your specific problem at the moment seems to be that HGD is a weird, badly written, badly balanced Charm with too many different benefits for different costs. It's been referred to as "Word Soup" in another now-ancient thread on the subject, and I think there's good reason for that. If you think it's trying to act like 3 different Charms, I'd suggest that the easiest fix would be to cut it up into three different Charms.

I saw in the Golden Calibration charm rewrite where the author notes that RST and the unexpected attack section in the Combat rules were from different versions of the unexpected attacks rules, clarified by the developers. I think my problem is that I have been away from a lot of these discussions over the years so I'm trying to play catch up. I was very active on the white wolf forums years ago but my 3rd edition discussion-fu is very weak.

Word Soup is a good way to say it. For my rewrite, I just ported over 7SE into HGD with some minor changes and allowed both to defend against unexpected attacks as they are basically one-use tricks. I figure, if my Melee characters want a damage nullifier, they can just port over VD.

The initiative to essence conversion explanation was amazing. I'm not the best mather so having someone break it down like that helps a lot. It was elegantly explained. Thank you.

Tyzerg

[Tyzerg]

For me the important question is who's the player character in this situation.

It's reasonable to say a character can't employ a defensive melee charm when they don't have a melee weapon. It's my opinion that HGD mentioning unexpected attacks was future proofing against magic that gives attacks the properties of an ambush rather than allow a Solar being able to parry an assassin's dagger while asleep in their bed despite their sword being all the way across the room.

However, people are substantially less reasonable when it's their character on the line.

I guess, for me, it's more of who invested more into the desired result. If I made a stealth/thrown character heavily invested in both and I do something like Observer-Deceiving Attack into Crimson Razor Wind to get my ambush attack, using 2+ charms and 8+m, 1wp I expect a little more resistance than one charm costing 4m. I know that that is a white room scenario and that defense trumps offense but dodge fairs even worse in this situation. To do the same for dodge, you'd have to spend 5m for RST and still that only works well if the dodger is lucky enough to get back to full Evasion.

I agree, if the PC is the defender in this scenario, then it is badass to stop an assassin's dagger with HGD. But, if I start paranoia combatting all of my NPCs with HGD effects, then my PC stealth monkey is going to be very put out. My HGD change mentioned in my High Priest reply is probably good enough, at least for my mental well-being, lol.

Thanks for the reply

Tyzerg

[HighPriest]

I saw in the Golden Calibration charm rewrite where the author notes that RST and the unexpected attack section in the Combat rules were from different versions of the unexpected attacks rules, clarified by the developers. I think my problem is that I have been away from a lot of these discussions over the years so I'm trying to play catch up. I was very active on the white wolf forums years ago but my 3rd edition discussion-fu is very weak.

Word Soup is a good way to say it. For my rewrite, I just ported over 7SE into HGD with some minor changes and allowed both to defend against unexpected attacks as they are basically one-use tricks. I figure, if my Melee characters want a damage nullifier, they can just port over VD.

The initiative to essence conversion explanation was amazing. I'm not the best mather so having someone break it down like that helps a lot. It was elegantly explained. Thank you.

Tyzerg

Glad to help. Good luck getting the system where you want it.