Magic Armor: Problematic?

[Hand-of-Omega]

While Artifacts throughout previous editions could always have extra powers, it seems that 3E is really going to make a big deal of this with Evocations. I think most people easily think of Magic Swords as the iconic enchanted tool of heroes, but shields and armor are also available as such. The idea of Circles of Solars traveling about with crazy powerful daiklaves is pretty cool, but for some reason, I find the notion of shields, and especially armor, with all sorts of extras charms/powers built in to be...I dunno, off-putting. And I'm not sure why...

Maybe it's because there are comparatively few such magic items in mythology and fantasy literature? Or maybe it feels like the characters will be relying more on something they wear, as opposed to something they carry? Or perhaps it's the notion that, while swords have offensive magic powers, armor should have defensive powers/charms. But then, I'm sure you'll be able to have offensive powers in your armor, too. Will people invest more into their armors than into their PCs?

Honestly, I'm not sure if any of that is what's nagging at me, or if it's just the feeling that vastly powerful magic armor is just not in theme for Exalted. It's been possible to have it in earlier editions, of course, but I don't recall any version with unique powers, not even in DotFA, where practically every statted NPC had weapons with unique powers. Hmmm...

I guess what I'm saying is: Sell me on Artifact Armor loaded with Evocations!

[Hand-of-Omega]

While we're on the subject:

Will armor be rated according to Evocation levels, rather than size? For ex, will a Buff Jacket capable of Sapphire Evocations be rated higher than a Superheavy Plate Armor that only has Emerald ones?

And if anyone has any ideas for magic armor in Exalted, either ones you've used in previous games, or concepts you're waiting for 3E to use, let's hear about them!

[Zelbinnean]

I imagine powered armor will remain, but the numbers will be cut back. I never felt like Dragon Armor was anything but ultra-rare in 1e, but 2e made it feel more prevalent...I imagine 3e might go back to hundreds of suits of gunzosha armor, rather than thousands, just as a sense of scale. Just like I think things like "Paragon has a factory-cathedrel to manufacture shock pikes" is a similar statement that will be gone.

And it's been said that Artifacts with that aesthetic will either not have as many Evocations or will lack them compared to "traditional" Artifacts. Probably because clockwork wonders are wearing more power on the outside that doesn't require a big, long-term investment to tap into. They provide more bang up front, but I'd guess a full Evocation tree will end up much more impressive in its powers.

[Revan058]

And it's been said that Artifacts with that aesthetic will either not have as many Evocations or will lack them compared to "traditional" Artifacts. Probably because clockwork wonders are wearing more power on the outside that doesn't require a big, long-term investment to tap into. They provide more bang up front, but I'd guess a full Evocation tree will end up much more impressive in its powers.

I can. Understand the idea. But this, along with some other development statements really comes off like "You're having fun the wrong way, so you get less for doing things this way". For me, there's not a single reason why the Evocation cascade shouldn't be just as strong. If they're moving to a more level-field artifact creation system, you already paid for the artifact, and it cost more then the other. Yes, you have a few more upfront powers, but, well. Again, you paid for it, why does that mean that outgrowth is crippled? You can learn to use ANYTHING better, grow closer to it.

Why should that other suddenly have more options, just because the aesthetic is diffrent, because some people REALLY like that aestetic?

[SuperG]

While Artifacts throughout previous editions could always have extra powers, it seems that 3E is really going to make a big deal of this with Evocations. I think most people easily think of Magic Swords as the iconic enchanted tool of heroes, but shields and armor are also available as such. The idea of Circles of Solars traveling about with crazy powerful daiklaves is pretty cool, but for some reason, I find the notion of shields, and especially armor, with all sorts of extras charms/powers built in to be...I dunno, off-putting. And I'm not sure why...

Maybe it's because there are comparatively few such magic items in mythology and fantasy literature? Or maybe it feels like the characters will be relying more on something they wear, as opposed to something they carry? Or perhaps it's the notion that, while swords have offensive magic powers, armor should have defensive powers/charms. But then, I'm sure you'll be able to have offensive powers in your armor, too. Will people invest more into their armors than into their PCs?

Honestly, I'm not sure if any of that is what's nagging at me, or if it's just the feeling that vastly powerful magic armor is just not in theme for Exalted. It's been possible to have it in earlier editions, of course, but I don't recall any version with unique powers, not even in DotFA, where practically every statted NPC had weapons with unique powers. Hmmm...

I guess what I'm saying is: Sell me on Artifact Armor loaded with Evocations!

Shields ARE weapons. They're exceptionally good at parrying, but they're still weapons. I could easily imagine one that mystically expanded the standard maneuver "shield bash" into something epic (perhaps into something that can shove back an entire legion...), or one that doubles as a amazing returning thrown weapon (*waves to Captain America*), as well as one that can create a barrier large enough to divert a lava flow... or one bearing a Phoenix (or whatever) on it that allows you to call forth the Phoenix to attack your foes (or whatever).


Epic Magic Armour? How about the hide of a monstrous plasmic beast that allows the wearer to step into the Underworld (and do other "darkness" stuff)? A bearskin that turns you into a bear? Scale Armour made from the feathers of a dozen cockatrices (stone-related Evocations)? Perhaps literal shining armour - you glow in the dark, and perhaps even blindingly so - a full tree full of Light based Evocations seems fitting. Armour inlaid with pearls that grants mastery over water (starting with survival thereof, of course)? Armour of the Black Knight - once donned, all memory of your name is severed from you, granting complete anonymity... the Emperor's New Plate, an invisible, weightless suit of armour that is nonetheless completely protecting...


There's *plenty* of scope for epic and "whoah" armours and shields.

[horngeek]

The Emperor's New Plate would be... interesting. :P

[SuperG]

I'd probably make it so the wielder could change the criteria for being able to see it - "only my enemies can see this armour" or "only Essence wielders", and perhaps allow them to extend the effect to other things... I'm sure more tricks can be conceived of for it. And it allows for a neat visual aesthetic (it's like I'm wearing nothing at all).

[Zelbinnean]

Will armor be rated according to Evocation levels, rather than size? For ex, will a Buff Jacket capable of Sapphire Evocations be rated higher than a Superheavy Plate Armor that only has Emerald ones?

Maybe but the whole notion of "what gear has what Evocations" is purely speculative at this point and, from my impression, what powers might be accessible in an Artifact seemed to be more about who a particular wielder is than any inherent limits in the Artifact's design itself - like Solars might be able to get more and more powerful effects out of that buff jacket than a Sidereal might get out of any superheavy plate.

Why should that other suddenly have more options, just because the aesthetic is diffrent, because some people REALLY like that aestetic?

I think for the same reasons that it's said that Lunars in DBT completely lose Evocation access. You're trading one strength (higher initial power) for another (more long term potential). Starting with, like...a gyroscopic chakram at chargen over a normal orichalcum chakram presumably gives you some benefit above and beyond the normal one. But when you look at Artifacts like Volcano Cutter that have huge Evocation trees, I would expect a gyroscopic chakram to have more up-front power and less long-term power increase, while a normal chakram will be the opposite.

If the gyroscopic chakram starts with more power and has the same Evocation cascade as a normal orichalcum one, it's flat-out better. And that is territory I think the writers are (understandably) gun-shy about especially since their intent is to tone back the notion and prevalence of what 2e called magitech.

Also, considering how Evocations aren't free to access, some people may not care about having a huge tree of the to spend XP on and open up instead of spending that XP on other things. I think that's an advantage for the clockwork-type stuff, for a particular character type.

[Revan058]

If the gyroscopic chakram starts with more power and has the same Evocation cascade as a normal orichalcum one, it's flat-out better. And that is territory I think the writers are (understandably) gun-shy about especially since their intent is to tone back the notion and prevalence of what 2e called magitech.

And without that, the normal one is flat out better. Evocations offer SO much more power then such a piddly, minor thing.

And....yes, it's a bit better. You also paid more artifact dots/had to work harder to make it. How is that a problem? Does this mean that a 5 dot Dacklave is going to have a garbage Evocation cascade, because otherwise it would be better then a One dot? If not, why is magitech the exception?

[Zelbinnean]

And without that, the normal one is flat out better. Evocations offer SO much more power then such a piddly, minor thing.

I mean, theoretically it probably will be? I haven't seen the Evocation mechanics, I don't know. I do know that there will be some people who want minimal-XP-investment bang for your buck and I think certain Artifact styles cater to that concept better than others.

At the same time it's hard to imagine certain Evocation cascades being better than the built-in powers of Obsidian Sheaths, Dragon Armor or Celestial Battle Armor, and providing advantages even to mortals who probably lack general Evocation access (like ashigaru and gunzosha armor, which are designed for mortals, being much better for mortals than orichalcum half-plate ever could be for them). Like, I think Evocations will be awesome, but Black Widow Razors and Gauntlets of Distant Claws were already pretty awesome, and a lot more useful than normal razor claws, so I don't think the authors are going to give Black Widow Razors all the Evocation benefits of normal razor claws plus all the inherent benefits of Black Widow Razors, or they'd just be a no-brainer from a mechanical standpoint. Which they were in 2e.

And....yes, it's a bit better. You also paid more artifact dots/had to work harder to make it. How is that a problem? Does this mean that a 5 dot Dacklave is going to have a garbage Evocation cascade, because otherwise it would be better then a One dot?

I bet anything in the upper dot ranges will have a more significant Evocation package than those Artifacts in the lower ranges, and will probably have non-Evocation powers. Like Soul Mirror, I bet Soul Mirror will be a Killfuck Soulshitter wet dream like it was in 2e before you even buy a single Evocation off of it, simply because it's fucking Soul Mirror.

If not, why is magitech the exception?

My guess is thematic reasons intending the bulk of Creation-born Artifacts to be more evocative of sword & sorcery and the legendary myth-weapons of the real world, rather than evocative of steam/cyberpunk. With the (long-ago) statement that Alchemicals might not even have Evocations at all, I assume their approach to this shortcoming is reflected in their focus on clockwork armor. Yeah, it's the authors saying "this is the theme we think is best and thus it's the theme that's going to be mechanically supported the best." Probably what'll happen.

[Revan058]

So that means it's just "This is more useless, because we say so". It can't be controlled via rarity, it actually has to be more useless, for not a single reason other then they think so. They're the single exception for the rule. Because other things offer up front bang, but they don't get crippled eovcations!

...wow. And I disliked the rolling back of magitech BEFORE. Urgh.

[Ellis]

In the vein of iconic armor/shield artifacts, some examples from myth and fantasy (mostly myth): (EDIT: during research for this post I got distracted by a list of DND magic items so I expect to have been thoroughly Sidereal'd by the time I finish but whatever)
Hades had a helm of darkness which, when worn, made him invisible. Naturally, I imagine in Exalted it might also allow dematerialization like a ghost, travel between Creation and the Underworld, and other similarly deathy powers.
Excalibur everyone knows, but Excalibur's sheath had its own protective powers. Given how much everyone loves their own version of the Arthur story, the details vary, anywhere from "wounds do not bleed" to "the wearer cannot be wounded at all" with a dip into "but only while Excalibur is sheathed". I think that's quite evocative, a sword that provides powerful defensive Evocations so long as the user refuses to actually fight.
Similar to Hades' helmet, the Tarnhelm can confer invisibility upon its wearer. It also allows them to shapeshift into (among other things) the form of a dragon, which is considerably more interesting in the context of Exalted.
Athena's Aegis (sometimes said to be borrowed from Zeus) was a shield which bore the head of the Gorgon (of a version in which Medusa is one of three, and rape by Poseidon plays no part in the Gorgons' origins). It makes a terrifying roaring sound in battle and generally inspires fear; its epithets seem to support the idea that it was best used to charge into battle instead of hanging back defensively.
The Ancile was a shield gifted to Rome by Mars, god of war. While the shield remained in Rome, it was guaranteed to rule the world. Numa, the king of Rome, ordered eleven copies to be made in case of someone trying to steal it.
The Shishenli (Wikipedia translates as Glory of Ten Powers, I would say Ten Gods' Strength) was technically a sword, forged by a husband and wife using Tibetan magic (the Shishenli itself is from Chinese legend). As it was forged, the spirit of love was so inspired by their love for each other that it entered the sword and thereafter protected its wielder from all harms. Apparently, it was later melted down into an amulet which retained the sword's protective powers.
Freyja's cloak was made of falcon feathers. Not only did it make her even more beautiful, it allowed her to transform into a falcon herself.
Harmonia's necklace was forged for her by Hephaestus, although it came with a curse. Anyone who wore it remained eternally young and beautiful, but the curse ensured that misfortune and disaster would befall them too soon for them to enjoy, say, eternal immortality.
Draupnir is a ring belonging to Odin (though there are others like it), which duplicates itself when the ring is turned. As the ring is made of golden, it is essentially an infinite counterfeiting machine.
Finally, and on a somewhat sillier note, the Norse god Vidarr had really good shoes. They perfectly protected his feet. It's more significant than it sounds, but I like the idea of an artifact that does exactly that and nothing more.

[Odd_Canuck]

Well i can offer some notes from an NPC I made. It's in no way proper formatting since I had no idea how evocations were set up at the time I created him.

Thrice Blessed, Fire aspect, lost egg, no indoor voice, no idea of subtle.
-game notes: greeted players loudly in Firewander park as "The Anathema", Tested Mike's character for battle fitness.
-forces are heavy foot troops, heavy armor& weapons, 20 people.
-weapon is nothing special, heavy artifact sword no evocations.
-armor is called Blood Reign. Allows the bearer to fly via wings on it's back, immunity to it's own blood effects, can summon a troop transporting tornado of blood provided there has been significant bloodshed on the battlefield. higher level powers - can ignite blood on the battlefield, form battlements of blood, form a blood barrier, cause a rain of blood across the battlefield.

[The Revenge of TV Head]

I think for the same reasons that it's said that Lunars in DBT completely lose Evocation access.

I really hope that's just speculation. Because, fuck that noise.

[Revan058]

I really hope that's just speculation. Because, fuck that noise.

...I. Wait, what? *scrolls up*

...I think I blanked that out when I was reading over that post. That. Wj...WHY. Why the fuck would your NATIVE POWERS shut off your equipment, espcally if it's a damn MOONSILVER, SHIFTING WEAPON? You know, the shit that's flowing and shifting and...i have a headach now...