First Age and Primordial War characters?

[Crumplepunch]

...if his most glorious action in the war hadn't been "Breaking Parley and poking some being's sole eye out in a surprise attack, then running away." Sure, said eye was a crystal lens probably about as tall as he was, but he was still being a dick.

Apropos of nothing, while the Greeks saw Odysseus as a clever folk hero using his cunning to overcome challenges, Roman sources like Virgil saw him as a cruel trickster using his wiles to escape the trouble he deserved.

Such are the perils of interpretation.

[TheCountAlucard]

Such are the perils of interpretation.

This, here. Spin is everything.

[Isator Levi]

Said behemoth was helping the Primordials; Desus was there in the first place to get him to not help the Primordials, and negotiation wasn't getting him anywhere.

Okay, I don't know how detailed some of the original developments were, but I'm reasonably certain that the characterisation of Oliphem has always been "he's impartial in whom he helps out at sea; he doesn't perceive things in terms of sides, just folks who need help". So this is basically the kind of logic that says that it would be all right to target Red Cross members providing aid to the other side in a war, because if they won't make their humanitarian efforts exclusive to you then they're your enemy, and also the fact that they're an asset to the enemy makes it perfectly justifiable to attack them to deny the enemy assets.

[Zelbinnean]

That comic between him and Oliphem certainly didn't help, when Desus goes full douchebag because Oliphem termed what he said a "request."

I think it speaks well of Solar hubris if nothing else. Excise all the (really unnecessary and prevalent) wife-beating references and Desus still proves that not all Solars are good people even if they can put on a convincing public face.

[Krata Lightblade]

That comic between him and Oliphem certainly didn't help, when Desus goes full douchebag because Oliphem termed what he said a "request."

I think it speaks well of Solar hubris if nothing else. Excise all the (really unnecessary and prevalent) wife-beating references and Desus still proves that not all Solars are good people even if they can put on a convincing public face.

They also prove that "heroism" is not the same as "bright shiny paladin of goodness that never does anything questionable".

[TheCountAlucard]

I'm not saying it's all right, Isator, but it's at least understandable.

[Erinys]

Oh, Facet Raven must have been a War veteran.

[Zelbinnean]

They also prove that "heroism" is not the same as "bright shiny paladin of goodness that never does anything questionable".

While I agree with you, I didn't see anything about the Desus/Oliphem exchange as particularly heroic. To me it was nothing more than pure pragmatism.

[Baaldam]

While I agree with you, I didn't see anything about the Desus/Oliphem exchange as particularly heroic. To me it was nothing more than pure pragmatism.

Also a riff on Odysseus and Poliphemus, though from a much less disadvantageous position for certain.

[Tenkage]

As far as veterans who survived to the "First Age", Dreams of the First Age lists Kadeon the Sidereal, Guato the Dragonblood, Lilith the Lunar, Golden Shadowed Arrow (Jade's previous incarnation), Brightly Shattered Ice, Merela, the Heirophant, and I think that might be it. Desus' incarnation died at the start but he did participate in the War.

[Erinys]

Hmmm do you mean Hadeon?

[Tenkage]

Yeah, I keep calling him Kadeon for some reason

[Dietaku]

If we're accepting even the fringes of RotSE as canon, then the Infernal General also was a major leader in the waning days of the war, and if Gunstar Autochthonia can be extrapolated from for info, then the Magnus may have been around as well.

[Totentanz]

There's a whole mess of things behind the transition of Desus from "Oddyssesus reference occupying the role of vengeful Solar who tragically blinded a Polyphemus reference" to "abusive husband and all around cruel jerk with a tendency to convince himself and everyone else that any action he takes is righteous and justified", even before considering the exaggerations that came out of forum echo-chambering (although I'd say those weren't exactly helped by some poor word choices, like a Charm saying that Desus could get away with beating an orphan to death in front of people). I have to imagine that at some point the whole "Desus is a dick" thing retained momentum because of posters who saw a kind of perverse game in coming up with the worst thing he could do, and eventually forgot that it wasn't really in the books so much.

(Please nobody think I'm making light of anything, or condoning violence or abuse in any way with the following.)

There's also a cultural shift to be considered. Reading Desus as written up in Dreams, I see someone the writer wanted to be a flawed hero. He did great things for many reasons, some good, some not so good, and some just plain vain. He beat his wife but....<screech>. That's where the cultural issue comes in. At a certain point, people didn't support domestic abuse, but there was still narrative room culturally for someone to be an abusive spouse, but also an effective leader, doctor, whatever. That narrative room just doesn't exist in our world anymore. In the 80's and most of the 90's a story about a hard-boiled detective/veteran/whatever who is divorced because he got drunk and beat his wife, but now has the chance to redeem himself would be doable. Now, the author will just flamed to death on Twitter.

At this point, some things in our world just get you auto-dumped in the evil bin. Whereas we could tell stories about those kind of characters before, we just reject them now. Desus as a character suffers greatly from that, and from the fact that the book talks about him doing other awesome things, but the only one it really goes into is the cheap shot blinding. That sucker punch was heroic, in Exalted terms, but it still has that stain of betrayal on it.

Then you drop that character into the toxic state the forum was in after the release of Dreams (took a long time to make, physical books were literally falling apart, etc), and yeah, forum echo-chamber has made a guy that was intended to be a highly flawed anti-hero into the Snidley Whiplash of the entire First Age.

If I were writing the character, even in that timeframe, and I wanted to make him flawed, I would have just cut the shit with Lillith, made him a womanizer and an absentee husband, and let the Oliphem story do the rest.

(Also, in case I need to clarify, anyone who physically abuses or gaslights their SO should be strung up by their toenails so weasels can eat their face off.)

[Kallipolis]

(Please nobody think I'm making light of anything, or condoning violence or abuse in any way with the following.)

There's also a cultural shift to be considered. Reading Desus as written up in Dreams, I see someone the writer wanted to be a flawed hero. He did great things for many reasons, some good, some not so good, and some just plain vain. He beat his wife but....<screech>. That's where the cultural issue comes in. At a certain point, people didn't support domestic abuse, but there was still narrative room culturally for someone to be an abusive spouse, but also an effective leader, doctor, whatever. That narrative room just doesn't exist in our world anymore. In the 80's and most of the 90's a story about a hard-boiled detective/veteran/whatever who is divorced because he got drunk and beat his wife, but now has the chance to redeem himself would be doable. Now, the author will just flamed to death on Twitter.

At this point, some things in our world just get you auto-dumped in the evil bin. Whereas we could tell stories about those kind of characters before, we just reject them now. Desus as a character suffers greatly from that, and from the fact that the book talks about him doing other awesome things, but the only one it really goes into is the cheap shot blinding. That sucker punch was heroic, in Exalted terms, but it still has that stain of betrayal on it.

Then you drop that character into the toxic state the forum was in after the release of Dreams (took a long time to make, physical books were literally falling apart, etc), and yeah, forum echo-chamber has made a guy that was intended to be a highly flawed anti-hero into the Snidley Whiplash of the entire First Age.

If I were writing the character, even in that timeframe, and I wanted to make him flawed, I would have just cut the shit with Lillith, made him a womanizer and an absentee husband, and let the Oliphem story do the rest.

(Also, in case I need to clarify, anyone who physically abuses or gaslights their SO should be strung up by their toenails so weasels can eat their face off.)

Except that Desus' behavior was far worse than simply beating his mate. Desus used his powers to force Lilith to have sex with him. Desus used his powers to force Lilith to have sex with other people. Desus used his powers to force Lilith to change her sex beyond her gender identity for his amusement during sex. Desus used his powers to make Lilith know he was having sex with other people without her being able to do anything about it. He's a treacherous, abusive serial rapist who magically gaslit his wife into accepting the abuse and convinced his society into ignoring it.

Desus is a dick.