The Castes, their abilities, and Supernals

[The Wizard of Oz]

I mean viable in terms of not being a warrior.
It's entirely viable in terms of playing the character.

I was thinking about this recently, and for a genius character (who has Supernal War because he's so clever: of course he probably also favours Lore, but that's not as important as his Int 5 and Supernal War; his War charms are very focused on all the Strategic Maneouvre stuff), your main actual combat ability might well be Dodge; predict your enemies' attacks and be out of the way before they make them. But what offensive combat ability should you use when you're not actually directing troops? And I thought maybe Thrown; calculate the perfect angles to bounce throwing knives or stars off things.
Martial Arts could work too, but I'm not sure what Martial Art would actually be appropriate. I'd be tempted to go with Dreaming Pearl for being able to use anything as a weapon, but it doesn't feel right.

[*End]

I felt they were more OT-Prophets (which I guess is why 3rd ed ones get Lore) - If it were Jesus, I think it'd include Medicine.

While I can't say anything with regards to the idea of Jesus having medicine, I would say that to me, Zeniths have always inspired thoughts of Isaiah, vigorously condemning the moral state of Creation and offering its people a better path.

[Zelbinnean]

You could go with Crane, it's supremely defensive (although mostly Parry based) but also mostly focused on nonlethal responses.

[Ghosthead]

Generalized statements like this reallllllly grind my gears.

If you feel like telling me more specifically what you don't agree with, feel free.

[Childofthesun1]

I think I like Zenith partially because I've always played Paladins and such, and they're holy warriors, but mainly because God is a dude you can actually talk to and interact with. I've always thought that was pretty neat, and the Unconquered Sun often features prominently in my games.

How long was he on that cross before the soldiers said, "Fuck it, just stab him?" Wasn't it nine hours? Oh, right, they beat him and scourged him before putting him up there, can't forget that. You're right, no one thinks of Resistance when they discuss Jesus.

Minor quibble, Jesus was already dead when they stabbed him. They were just making sure.

[Zelbinnean]

If you feel like telling me more specifically what you don't agree with, feel free.

"Eclipses and Twilights generally aren't about physical strength" isn't a thing borne out by any writing or mechanics, beyond normal opportunity costs that every Caste has to pay. It comes across like Castes are classes or something.

[Ghosthead]

In the context of my example, I suppose you could have a Twilight or Eclipse Caste character with a Supernal Integrity for the Twilight or a Supernal Presence for the Eclipse, and then a physically strong Ability (Resistance / Athletics / Brawl) as a his most highly rated Ability with the next most Charms put into it, as a Favoured Ability.

It doesn't strike me as being as likely to do that as a Zenith Caste, but if the character fits close to the descriptions of "Twilights, great savants and engineers; ... Eclipses, heralds, diplomats, merchantmen and troubleshooters" or "The Twilight Caste: Craftsmen, wise men, and binders of occult forces....The Eclipse Caste: Forgers of accords between the powers of the world, these Lawgivers are far-ranging diplomats, socialites, merchants, and adventurers.", then it's fine.

[Root]

In the context of my example, I suppose you could have a Twilight or Eclipse Caste character with a Supernal Integrity for the Twilight or a Supernal Presence for the Eclipse, and then a physically strong Ability (Resistance / Athletics / Brawl) as a his most highly rated Ability with the next most Charms put into it, as a Favoured Ability.

Doesn't that make the character's story just an extension of the character sheet? Your choices and your portrayal matter a lot more than the exact ratio of charms.

I'm not suggesting that your charms and such never limit what you can do or create new opportunities. But they don't determine how you go about solving problems or what you decide is a problem worth solving (or creating).

[hippokrene]

"Eclipses and Twilights generally aren't about physical strength" isn't a thing borne out by any writing or mechanics, beyond normal opportunity costs that every Caste has to pay. It comes across like Castes are classes or something.

I can sort of see it for Twilights as we tend to see doctors, scholars, architects, and sorcerers as being more focused on mental pursuits. Crafters tend to do more physical labor, which is why the new crafting rules just say [Attribute]+Craft for your roll.

It doesn’t make any sense for Eclipse, who seem to fit into the gentleman adventurer role. Are sailors not physically active? Diplomats and merchants who travel to far away locales are going to be social, but the reality of pre-modern travel means they need to be hardy and able to protect themselves.

[Ghosthead]

Doesn't that make the character's story just an extension of the character sheet? Your choices and your portrayal matter a lot more than the exact ratio of charms.

I'm not suggesting that your charms and such never limit what you can do or create new opportunities. But they don't determine how you go about solving problems or what you decide is a problem worth solving (or creating).

No, I don't think so. Although I'm not sure I totally understand, so if you want to try and put it another way...?

I'm not sure either if this is a response to what you're asking, but it seems like it would be difficult to believably portray a character to the rest of a group whose most notable strength in ability they know is not one which is either his supernal ability on his character sheet, nor is a particularly highly rated one, nor one in which he has the single most of his characters Charms (nor the most powerful of his Charms). Even if the character's sheet was totally invisible and they were simply going by actions in the game.

[Root]

No, I don't think so. Although I'm not sure I totally understand, so if you want to try and put it another way...?

I'm not sure either if this is a response to what you're asking, but it seems like it would be difficult to believably portray a character to the rest of a group whose most notable strength in ability they know is not one which is either his supernal ability on his character sheet, nor is a particularly highly rated one, nor one in which he has the single most of his characters Charms (nor the most powerful of his Charms). Even if the character's sheet was totally invisible and they were simply going by actions in the game.

Thousand Skull Chief was a name whispered in fear by the other tribes, whose warriors were never brave enough and whose leaders were never clever enough to defend their people against the savage raids that swept across the plains. But one day Thousand Skull Chief went to the sacred place where no man waged war and lit the ceremonial fires calling all the leaders of the tribes to parley.

He addressed them as brothers, with tears in his eyes. He told them of the boats that he had at last seen approach their shores from the Blessed Isle, of the soldiers and slave-masters whose atrocities would make his pillage seem like nothing. He told them that the Empire of Ten Thousand Dragons would devour them and shit out cities full of broken slaves.

The other leaders asked in confusion why Thousand Skull Chiefs had not dealt with these foreign invaders himself, why he had not fallen upon them when their men were debarking those ships, and sent them home with a belly full of slaughter. He replied that he had tried, and that his warriors had been cut down before his eyes. He revealed the bloody stump at the end of his sword arm, saying that he alone had been allowed to live as a message to the people of the plains.

Two nights later, when Thousand Skull Chiefs left the place of peace with all the tribes united behind him, he finally rested. When he led the united armies into battle against the Realm, he exalted as a Chosen of the Sun, bearing the mark of the Eclipse caste.

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This guy could probably go with Supernal Presence, some Ride, War, Melee, Integrity, and Resistance charms, and whatever else makes sense with some more thought and development. How the charms break down exactly isn't that important. Chances are he'll fight a lot and do a good job of it, since that happens a lot in Exalted anyway. The nature of his legend should be more to do with his most remarkable deeds than the mechanical details of what it took to accomplish them. I feel like despite his background as a warrior, his greatness is in unifying people. That can continue to be his story, if he chooses to carry out his fight against the Realm by getting people to put aside their differences. That doesn't have to be the thing he does most often if it's the thing he does most prominently.

[Morangias]

You can play an exceptionally strong Twilight - say, a blacksmith who can as easily bend a sword into a pretzel as he can forge one - or an Eclipse who's a tough survivalist braving the wilderness of Creation to reach out to forgotten tribes, or whatnot. That's cool because it puts an interesting spin on the core concept of the caste.

But if your Twilight is more known for his brawn than his brains or his artifice, why is he a Twilight? Castes are supposed to be in line with the core of your being. Limiting Supernal Skill choice to your Caste Skill reinforces that. It makes sense - if your greatest singular talent lies in wielding weapons, how are you not a Sword of Heaven?

In Vampire, it might be interesting to play an antisocial, anarchist Ventrue, because your character didn't get to choose his clan - it was forced on him by a whim of another vampire. Due to that, playing wildly against type isn't just viable, it actually reinforces the core concept of the clan by contrasting it. In Exalted, playing a Twilight who's a dumb brute or a Dawn who's neither a warrior nor a commander just plain makes no sense and undermines the whole idea of having Castes in the first place.

[Totentanz]

Well, all of that discounts Favored Abilities (which was perhaps the point since they're completely open). A Twilight can certainly be a survivalist and take a punch and be Indiana Jones or Samantha Carter. It's just not "built in," but it never really was (and they still have one of the best anima powers).

And the closest thing Zeniths really get to fighting is Athletics, which helps make you fight nastier but doesn't actually let you attack, and War, which is for a very specific kind of fighting.

Zeniths can be inherently good at making the most of a human body's potential, whether that's strength, speed, mental or physical fortitude, or ability to influence or lead others, but there's nothing inhererently good at skirmish level fighting about them.


This is interesting to me since I have a lot of trouble being interested in Zeniths. Great Abilities to Favor but I find the spread kind of meh and all over the place on its own. And the anima (in this ed and past eds) seems flavorful but exceptionally niche. Does nothing for me.

Yes, the 2E configuration didn't leave any room for Twilights to have an Ability oriented around the scholar-adventurer archetype. One of my hopes for 3rd was getting to see that.

Yes, they have one anima ability that doesn't synergize with other magic, so it only synergizes with armor. You can, of course use it in Crash. But, it's only Hardness 5, so whomever Crashed you by definition will ignore the hardness. SOOOOOOOO...Twilights wear heavy armor. *shrug*

On the other hand, Zeniths gets Athletics, and Resistance. Those are both big supplementals for combat. Toss on one combat ability, and you still have four Favored and three Caste Abilities to fill whatever role you want.

I do agree that the Zenith Anima powers this edition are somewhat uninspiring. The Ghost Rider stare power is kinda neat, but I'm not sure when I would use it. The CoD Kiss of Death is pretty nice, assuming you're playing a combat-oriented Zenith. Making spirits materialize is neat, but it easily replicated with Occult. They are the least interesting in this edition overall, imo.

[Ph34r_n0_3V1L]

I feel like none of the Castes should have attack abilities as caste abilities. Dawns should have something like (Athletics, Awareness, Craft, Dodge, Performance, Resistance, Sail, War), which covers being a good solider (Athletics, Awareness, Dodge, Resistance), being a general (Craft, Performance, War), and covers being an admiral (Sail, War). I find that access to attack ability Supernals makes combat balance difficult and encourages Dawns to solve every problem with fighting rather than being creative. I'd rather see more Dawns being generals than bruisers; more Odysseus than Achilles.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'd rather see more Dawns being generals than bruisers; more Odysseus than Achilles.

Then who is Achilles? If a Dawn is not Achilles, I don't know who else would do it.

Besides, Dawns are not solely generals and admirals, nor are they primarily appointed from the ranks of Creation's navies and militaries.