The Castes, their abilities, and Supernals

[Solar]

My mum always told me two wrongs don't make a right

[TheCountAlucard]

My mum always told me two wrongs don't make a right

No, but three lefts can.

[kawaiiwolf]

No, but three lefts can.

Usually if they're orthogonal and co-planar

[DrLoveMonkey]

Usually if they're orthogonal and co-planar

Also assuming Euclidean geometry and you're sitting in some non-complex version of 3-space.

[Amoeba]

The best solution is for all Charm trees to hit the E5 level in the rules. Give something enticing for everyone. Your player is thinking smart, frankly.

I can understand that it might be hard to invent Ess 4 or 5 charms for some abilities, but yeah, it does sort of give a vibe of "this ability isn't as good as those other ones".

Not only does bureaucracy hit essence five, Order Conferring Action is awesome.
Also essence 3 isn't quite as soon as it feels. It's about 22 sessions before anyone can take their first non-supernal essence 3 charm, that's not insignificant I think.

Yeah, we'll have to discuss it. (And shouldn't it be pretty much exactly 25 sessions?)
I'll probably just let them switch Supernals when Essence goes up IF they haven't taken any charms above the new Essence with the previous Supernal.
(I'm also still wondering whether Supernal should have some mild but common in-play effect to more strongly show that it's the character's most important ability.)

[kawaiiwolf]

Also assuming Euclidean geometry and you're sitting in some non-complex version of 3-space.

Touché Mr Monkey, Touché

[Zelbinnean]

I can understand that it might be hard to invent Ess 4 or 5 charms for some abilities

See, I don't get how it would be hard. If the "best" a Charm tree can get to is 3, maybe that effect at 3 is a good baseline for what a 5 in that Ability should do, and you thematically fill in the middle after that. It feels sort of like the writers had expansive ideas and plans for some Abilities and not others, which raises questions like...why are these Abilities with less, actually still kept as Abilities at all, or how are they thereby devalued with less magic support?

[Blackwell]

I'll probably just let them switch Supernals when Essence goes up IF they haven't taken any charms above the new Essence with the previous Supernal.

I think that's totally fair, though I've long had a "free retcon of anything that hasn't come up yet" rule; I probably wouldn't even make them wait for Essence increases.

(I'm also still wondering whether Supernal should have some mild but common in-play effect to more strongly show that it's the character's most important ability.)

Honestly? I wouldn't. I think anything that adds credence to the idea that Supernal is generically your "most important Ability" rather than very specifically the Ability where you get to exceed your Essence reinforces the (to my mind) misconceptions that have made Supernal such a controversial subject.

[Robert Vance]

See, I don't get how it would be hard. If the "best" a Charm tree can get to is 3, maybe that effect at 3 is a good baseline for what a 5 in that Ability should do, and you thematically fill in the middle after that. It feels sort of like the writers had expansive ideas and plans for some Abilities and not others, which raises questions like...why are these Abilities with less, actually still kept as Abilities at all, or how are they thereby devalued with less magic support?

For the sake of argument, let's imagine we'd printed Transcendent Warlord's Genius at Essence 4 and Battle-Visionary's Foresight at Essence 5. They're certainly powerful enough that no one would question those placements, and it would give the nice feeling of completeness that filling out the 1-to-5 scale brings. What effect does this have in play? None for people who have Supernal War. For people without the Supernal benefit, it becomes another ten or twenty sessions before they'd be able to get those cool Charms for their character. While there are certainly things that belong at Essence 4-5, and plenty of room for War Charms at this level, I don't think that anyone is actually harmed by front-loading War's capstones at Essence 3.

[Zelbinnean]

For the sake of argument, let's imagine we'd printed Transcendent Warlord's Genius at Essence 4 and Battle-Visionary's Foresight at Essence 5. They're certainly powerful enough that no one would question those placements, and it would give the nice feeling of completeness that filling out the 1-to-5 scale brings. What effect does this have in play? None for people who have Supernal War. For people without the Supernal benefit, it becomes another ten or twenty sessions before they'd be able to get those cool Charms for their character. While there are certainly things that belong at Essence 4-5, and plenty of room for War Charms at this level, I don't think that anyone is actually harmed by front-loading War's capstones at Essence 3.

I think there is an argument that the people who take Supernal War won't continue to receive a benefit for having that Supernal for as long as the people who pick Brawl, Craft, Melee, Lore, Occult, etc etc etc as Supernal. I'm not sure about "actual harm," because whether or not that is a problem for someone is really subjective.

So while there is room for E4-E5 Solar War Charms, and sure those can be home-brewed, we really have no idea what those should look like, having no point of comparison in the Ability beyond "more powerful in some way than BVF, but probably also more narrow in scope."

[Amoeba]

I think that's totally fair, though I've long had a "free retcon of anything that hasn't come up yet" rule; I probably wouldn't even make them wait for Essence increases.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I decided to go with as well. Players are allowed to change their Supernal between sessions or after Essence goes up as long as all charms are still legal. Gives an interesting choice when they know Essence will soon be going up, whether they want to maybe focus in another ability soon.

[Fata-Ku]

See, I don't get how it would be hard.

Not everyone is good at homebrew and balance, dude >.>
It's totally possible for a Storyteller or player to come up with a power that they simply don't know how to evaluate, or how to break down into incremental effects.
I mean, homebrew is cool and fun and all, but it takes a lot of practice and criticism to get good at.

If my player wants a charm that makes his unit functionally invisible due to superior maneuvering and "I'm so good at X" shenanigans, for example, I would seriously not know how to guage that essence-wise.

Or as a similar effect, if my Eclipse wants a charm that perfectly hides cargo/units on her ship such that even Sidereals are at a loss for finding it/them. That'd be a big old "fuck, I dunno, make it like that other sail charm that hides creatures of darkness and up the cost? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "

Likewise for the reverse of "I'm at Essence 4, can i do X?"

(edit: also I'm away from my books so if one of these already exists as an actual charm, pretend it doesn't)

[Zelbinnean]

Not everyone is good at homebrew and balance, dude.

I meant it wouldn't be hard for the writers to do since they determine balance and etc.

[Chejop Kejak]

For the sake of argument, let's imagine we'd printed Transcendent Warlord's Genius at Essence 4 and Battle-Visionary's Foresight at Essence 5. They're certainly powerful enough that no one would question those placements, and it would give the nice feeling of completeness that filling out the 1-to-5 scale brings. What effect does this have in play? None for people who have Supernal War. For people without the Supernal benefit, it becomes another ten or twenty sessions before they'd be able to get those cool Charms for their character. While there are certainly things that belong at Essence 4-5, and plenty of room for War Charms at this level, I don't think that anyone is actually harmed by front-loading War's capstones at Essence 3.

Okay, but the argument for whose sake I am assuming that would appear to be "gating Charms based on Essence is punitive and limiting to a majority of players," which seems like a design discussion which goes slightly beyond how many Charms Warfare got, compared to other abilities.

[Fata-Ku]

I meant it wouldn't be hard for the writers to do since they determine balance and etc.

Ah, my bad. I mistakenly read "Give something enticing for everyone." as advice to Amoeba / storytellers in general. My attention is a bit split atm. Apologies.