Dragon-Blooded families, lifespans and generations

[Thousand_Comforts_Base]

So, sometimes I think about the the idea of "generations" of Dragon-Blooded, and it seems really weird. The social expectation (in the Realm, at least) is that they have a child every 5 years or so, right? Let's say 1 in 5 exalts, and ignore the other 4 because they're not relevant to this. Then the children have kids, and so on, and so on. The original couple is 200 years old, they have 8 generations of children. The 7th generation are adults. You could be the youngest adult generation, and go attend your great-great-great-great-great-aunt's birth.

Do you give much thought to the kind of familial relationships that yields? Is the concept of a "generation" in any way meaningful at this point? How do you refer to your relatives? Do you call a nephew "uncle" because he's 100 years older than you and it's weird?

I try to imagine this in detail sometimes, but to be honest it kind of does my head in.

[Crumplepunch]

The Dynasty is aristocracy writ large, sprawling cats-cradle family trees are the norm. The good news is that if someone isn't a direct-line relative they are usually some kind of cousin, so that's a fairly reliable way to refer to extended relatives.

As an aside, I think it would be an excellent idea to ignore the prior social guidelines on having of children every five years or whatever it is. Dynasts have a social expectation to have heirs, the same as any aristocracy, but the social pressure to just have more children creates the mistaken impression that numbers are the primary goal. I have seen people unironically refer to female Dragon-Bloods as "baby factories" and I never want to see it again.

[Elfive]

5 years isn't the recommended frequency anyway. It's the fastest they can manage without causing health problems. The average is said to be about 8 per century, or one every twelve years on the next line. Which is possibly still a bit high.

Oh, also they're not expected to actually marry and start having kids until they're, like, 50 or so.

[Thousand_Comforts_Base]

I have seen people unironically refer to female Dragon-Bloods as "baby factories" and I never want to see it again.

Yeah, look, that is pretty gross, I think we're on the same page there. I tend to picture the superhuman capacity of the Dragon-Blooded quashing that view of them, but I admit that's part of a deliberate attempt on my part to interpret Creation as less sexist than the real world.

I guess I'm mainly wondering if people see opportunities for bizarre kinds of intrigue that become possible when people are able to produce children for 250 years straight.

[Isator Levi]

There's also the point about how bringing up children in the Scarlet Dynasty, even before certainty that they're going to be Exalted, is something that is a significant expense by design, a matter that will both limit how many children any given couple has and how long they need to wait before starting. I assume that it tends to average out to something like most Dynasts only having children at all between the ages of 100 and 200.

There are certainly going to be occasions where generations overlap, but probably not something as extreme as the distant ancestor of a Dynast still having children by the time that Dynast becomes an adult.

Dynasts have a social expectation to have heirs, the same as any aristocracy

I'd note that the dynamic there is something like a cross between aristocratic conventions and 1930s fascist ideas about children as the next generation of soldiers for the fatherland. Probably helped by the apparent fact that the Scarlet Dynasty is an aristocracy distinctly not really made wealthy by straightforward income from land ownership, as well as the fact that their Great House structure is a lot more expansive and communal than a lot of real-world aristocracies have been; a child of a Great House is not exactly in line to anything specifically descending from their own parents, even if those are the people with primary responsibility for making sure that you're properly educated and arrange your starting political contacts.

[*End]

I feel like I've read from someone official that the number of children a Dynast has is going to be fewer than was implied in 2e, not least because of how incredibly expensive the education of a Dynastic heir is. Like, on one hand, yes, having more children (especially those who become Exalted) is a prestigious thing, to have more than a handful of children will bankrupt your average Dynast. I would imagine there are some exceptions - Mnemon herself, for instance, strikes me as the sort of woman who would be able to have more than the three to five children I typically envision Dynasts having. On the other hand, she's also the sort of woman who would only have children (at this point in her life) if, for some reason, she felt as though she needed a direct child, rather than using one of her doubtless numerous descendants.

I believe this expenditure would also mean that the non-Exalted Dynasts are going to be seen as more prominent in 3e - that is, even apart from the fact that the Immaculate Order would recognize them as almost as spiritually perfect as Dragon-Blooded, they are still amongst the best educated, trained, and nourished mortals in Creation. This is not to say they're not going to be looked down on by their families - especially if such expenditure is indeed the case. "Do you know how much we spent on you, and you didn't even become Chosen?" But still, I would imagine that they're not ignored the way they were in 2e.

I would also imagine that not every child of a given pairing (even if the pairing is of two Dragon-Blooded) is Chosen - which would mean that they'd die within a century of being born. I would say that that lifetime would be time for the parents to recoup the financial losses of educating said mortal, but then you also should factor in that the mortal would probably have children of his or her own, which would also need the exorbitant amounts of money involved, so perhaps not. In any case, I'm imagining that most couples probably only deliberately have a handful of children at any one time - though there will be exceptions for exceptionally wealthy individuals and possibly even Houses. Like, I imagine that Ragara and Cynis both tend towards having more children than, say, Cathak or Tepet (back when Tepet wasn't on the decline), because they're both known for being wealthy even amongst the Dynasty.

[wonderandawe]

I went with the notion it wasn't a good thing to have too many extra Dragonblooded hanging around. There is only so many heirloom artifacts and titles to go around. If you are the youngest Dragonblooded in your family and your older brother and sister got all the good stuff, what's an entitled Dynast going to do? Cause problems and maybe throw in with that Anathema dude who is threatening to bring the system down.

[Gigaton-Falcon-Emu]

I went with the notion it wasn't a good thing to have too many extra Dragonblooded hanging around. There is only so many heirloom artifacts and titles to go around. If you are the youngest Dragonblooded in your family and your older brother and sister got all the good stuff, what's an entitled Dynast going to do? Cause problems and maybe throw in with that Anathema dude who is threatening to bring the system down.

I am personally fond of the "heir and spare" idea, a Dynast couple does not really have to worry about loosing children to miscarriage or disease like actual nobles would have so they would have little need to constantly give birth. It would make more sense if they strive to keep at least one heir and an extra in case the first one is dumb enough to get themselves killed. Also it makes them not too essential if they start getting ideas about getting their inheritance early. Whats interesting is that if males and females inherit on equal basis it becomes exponentially easier to keep a stable succession.

Btw vast age differences were not exactly rare in most historical aristocracies so it was not altogether that strange to attend to the birth of sibling that would be younger than your own child. The closeness in families also varied quite a bit so I would really like to see a more pronounced difference in this attitude amongst the houses (if I recall correctly 2ed only had differing tiers of neglect supplemented by an army of tutors).

On that note have we ever seen an inheritance scheme for Dynasts? For titles and land (since the way evocations work makes keeping all the artifacts together more than a little useless given how much effort it takes to master even one) since Partible Inheritance would subdivide the realm into oblivion within a few centuries I imagine.

[Tikor]

I guess I'm mainly wondering if people see opportunities for bizarre kinds of intrigue that become possible when people are able to produce children for 250 years straight.

Yes, especially with inheritances.

It's just another garnish on the intrigue from cadet branches of the family, main-line vs. off-line, adopted vs. trueborn, married-in fathers from the currently hated house vs. fathers from the currently allied house promoting their kids over others, and any other kind of label dissonance that is so important in the lives of aristocrats. And that's just the blood-related intrigue. We haven't even gotten to money or land or politics.

[Tikor]

On that note have we ever seen an inheritance scheme for Dynasts? For titles and land...

No, but I really want one. I've leaned on the European norms I know best (gender-flipped, of course, just like matriarchal marriage is the norm I expect the same in inheritance).

But I'd be interested in some Eastern variations being thrown in given Exalted's influences. I just don't know them well enough to make them up myself.

[Isator Levi]

to have more than a handful of children will bankrupt your average Dynast.

Heh, I imagine that it's actually fairly difficult to actually bankrupt a Dynast, if one considers the technical definition of bankruptcy as being fundamentally incapable of paying off your debts, rather than the colloquial use of having no money.

Which informs the matter of how I would say that it's likely that the majority of Dynasts who wouldn't need to go into debt to be able to afford the added expenses of tutors and school dues are the ones who are already past the point in their lives when they have children. Which is to say, if you're rich enough to be able to pay for the schooling of Dynast children, you're probably in a venerable position in which you pay for the schooling of other people's children.

Then one might consider the range of ways in which Dynasts could pay off a debt in a non-monetary fashion, to older Dynasts who can probably absorb monetary losses without much trouble but see a lot to want out of having somebody who can be sent to murder an enemy, go off on an adventure to reclaim your fallen Brother's daiklave, or give you very high consideration for the child benefiting from that loan being married to one of your granddaughters.

I imagine that for a Dynast to actually go bankrupt, you either have to be monumentally bad with your money, or have incurred a lot of bad blood from your peers, while also being the kind of person whose principles won't let you accept bailouts from the Guild or opportunistic spirits and Fair Folk.

On that note have we ever seen an inheritance scheme for Dynasts?

From Exalted: the Dragon Blooded, page 107:

Dragon-Blooded do not count on inheritances. Their parents tend to live so long and beget so many offspring that inheritances are rare and generally insignificant. When there is an inheritance, half of it goes to the spouse or eldest Dragon-Blooded child. Another 40 percent is divided between all remaining Dragon- Blooded children. The final 10 percent is divided up between all mortal children.
~~
In theory, a Dragon-Blooded may leave behind a will that overrides the official inheritance percentages. In practice, most wills are conveniently lost or damaged, while others are blatantly ignored. If the will slights a Dragon-Blooded in favour of a patrician, most imperial judges will take any half-formed excuse to rule it invalid.

I'm sure that was repeated verbatim somewhere in Second Edition, but don't care to look for it.

For titles and land

It appears to me that members of the Scarlet Dynasty don't actually have titles, and that what lends they had under the Empress were more like something that they held in trust from a nationalised scheme, rather than being individual possessions.

since the way evocations work makes keeping all the artifacts together more than a little useless given how much effort it takes to master even one

Well, you're kind of begging the question there of why somebody even has multiple Artifacts to distribute among children in the first place.

I imagine that the hereditary Artifacts are often something that are passed on while a venerable and retired Dynast is still alive, and are based more on personal judgements and relationships, rather than legal constrictions.

Really, when you're liable to have a number of children of superhuman prowess at the same time, the idea of giving arbitrary special treatment to the one who happens to have been born first for anything of significance (rather than what is left in your bank account after your debts are paid off following your death) seems a bit odd.

In any case, the overall attitude of the Scarlet Dynasty seems to be that you have to go out and actually make something of yourself, earning your own way up, rather than waiting more than a hundred years for your parents to die.

[Isator Levi]

If you are the youngest Dragonblooded in your family and your older brother and sister got all the good stuff, what's an entitled Dynast going to do?

Be Cathak Cainan?

I admit, that's a bit facetious; Cainan has three Exalted younger siblings, in addition to the three older ones

The point is, exactly what did these older siblings do that you didn't that let them get all of the good stuff?

Also, whom did they get it from?

These people do have jobs, don't they?

[Abakus]

These people do have jobs, don't they?

My reading has been that the House or branch of the House does a lot of supporting for a Dynast. The non-exalted Dynasts will use their training to enter the Thousand Scales or Immaculate Order (or serve the house directly as functionaries, bureaucrats, or low level officers), helping to support their House's economic/political/military machine. This lets the Dragonblooded focus on honing particular skills to super-human levels with a stipend from the House, and the understanding that they owe the House service and loyalty. Those who don't want that level of obligation or don't feel like their house is offering the proper level of support (or are instructed to do so by the house) join one of the Realm's many institutions to work their way up. And if they really want to shrug all that off, well, they can party in the Threshold for a couple of years.

That's the sort of level where most Dragonblooded will be trying to make their fortunes and names, not waiting for inheritances. They gain institutional wealth and power by serving their house and rising up through its ranks. If an elder Dynast is retiring from the Legions and none of his direct descendants are Chosen or lack martial inclinations, he can send his hereditary daiklave to one of his sister's grandkids. A DB who focuses on perfecting art can live a comfortable life on the House's dime, while a Dynast who learns to craft artifacts can generate enormous wealth and prosperity for his House and rise through the ranks on their own merits. Parents will try and promote their own children--it's only natural, after all--and intrigue will arise out of that, but I view the wealth of Dynasts as institutions rather than inheritances.

[WinterWombat]

The Realm can always use as many dragonblooded as it can get, but it needs well-cultivated dynasts even more than it needs raw numbers. A proper dynast is defined by more than just their exaltation; they've been raised all their life to support and perpetuate their society. Ideal dynasts have to possess a broad general education, specialized training in a career useful to the Empire, and at least a basic level of skill in the matters of governance and administration that come with a noble's rank. They need to be steeped in Realm culture, indoctrinated with its values, and bound to the Empire by ties of loyalty and ambition. Beyond all this, they must be instilled with the desire to start a family of their own and repeat the process with their own children.

Dynasts, like knights, samurai, and other versions of the warrior-noble archetype, represent a massive investment of resources by their society. Having more fledgeling terrestrials than you have the resources to properly raise doesn't do you many favors as a family or as a great house. Compare the way Lost Eggs are treated in the Scarlet Empire; their assimilation into society is a trial by fire that's designed to make them immediately useful with a minimum of cost and effort. If all the Realm needed was raw numbers of exalts, they could train a much larger number of them by using similar methods. Instead, terrestrial households invest a great deal in a smaller number of children, because one well-trained dynast is worth more to them (and to the Realm) than two or three dragonblooded who are merely soldiers.

As I've run the Realm in my own games, the greatly extended timeline of a dynast's life changes how they might view family. If you're a young scion of a dynastic family, your closest sibling in age might well be more than a decade older than you, and already beginning their career by the time you're in school. You'd probably end up bonding more with the other dynastic children closer to your age, regardless of whether they're technically your cousin, your nephew, or your great uncle. I imagine that actual terms of relation used would have more to do with relative age than with generation. Parent/grandparent/greatgrandparent would still work fine, though household heads and others with a sufficiently large pool of descendents would probably be referred to more by a name or absolute title. The equivalent term to Uncle, Aunt, etc would mean "Relative who is older than me and who I am not descended from." Cousin makes a good term for a relative of similar age to you. Niece/Nephew is what you call anyone who'd call you Aunt/Uncle. Memorizing your exact relation to dozens or hundreds of different relatives is probably part of the tedious homework that every dynastic child goes through, because specific bloodlines are Important even if they're also massively inconvenient to day to day life.

Overall, though, I don't imagine most of these terms to be quite as important to a dynast's day-to-day life as they are to us. The answer to "What do you call your great grandfather's second son who is the same age as your dad and thus 60 years older than you" is probably "My Lord." Same goes for your sister's son who is nonetheless 80 years older than you. Most people who aren't your direct ancestors or descendants are probably just other members of the same great house from your perspective, and above or below you in the house hierarchy based on relative age and prestige. I can see complications arising from issues like whether a 40 year-old child of the household head ranks above a 100 year old child of a distant branch family, but overall the Realm's extended family ties, while highly important to society, don't seem to carry a lot of actual intimacy.

[AnubisXy]

As an aside, I think it would be an excellent idea to ignore the prior social guidelines on having of children every five years or whatever it is. Dynasts have a social expectation to have heirs, the same as any aristocracy, but the social pressure to just have more children creates the mistaken impression that numbers are the primary goal. I have seen people unironically refer to female Dragon-Bloods as "baby factories" and I never want to see it again.

Out of curiosity, where did you get all of that from? According to both First and Second Edition (MoEP: Dragon Blooded pages 21-22), in the Realm Dragon Blood couples are expected to have at least 1 child every 50 years. Once the couple has had two children, the "procreative" requirement on their marriage is considered done, and they don't have to have any more children. So yeah, 2 kids in 100 years.

It seems like you're complaining about something that was never in the gameline.