[Complete] Ex3 Solar Charm rewrite

[Irked]

I don't think you can activate for 0i, that seems silly, although I'll admit this is not based on any explicit rules reference.

Anasurimbor's point about how this effect is not marginal makes me think it is important to leave the charm as it is in the book or mark it modified tag (as you said you'd do).

Yeah, he makes a good case. Since my version explicitly can't be activated for 0i, I think it's reasonable to make it always give a maximal cap-boost. (I'll probably still leave it Modified-tagged, since there is still some ambiguity as to exactly what the original meaning is.)

[pcontop]

Accuracy without distance is missing the 'hits even on no successes' effect.

[Irked]

Accuracy without distance is missing the 'hits even on no successes' effect.

How so? That's under the Essence 5 repurchase, just as it is for the original.

[pcontop]

How so? That's under the Essence 5 repurchase, just as it is for the original.

The way I read it, the text of the essence 5 repurchase ends on the end of the sentence. The rest, just as the 'once per crash period' apply to the charm as a whole. That's the thing with having no paragraphs.

[Irked]

The way I read it, the text of the essence 5 repurchase ends on the end of the sentence. The rest, just as the 'once per crash period' apply to the charm as a whole. That's the thing with having no paragraphs.

Hm. I can't see it parsing that way - the original says, "An Essence 5+ repurchase [works on Crashed enemies]. This attack [auto-hits]. This effect [applies once per Crash]." If "This effect" applies only to the upgrade - and it has to, because only the upgrade cares about Crashes - then "This attack" must, as well.

I do agree that clearer separation would be helpful, though - as demonstrated, heh.

[pcontop]

Hm. I can't see it parsing that way - the original says, "An Essence 5+ repurchase [works on Crashed enemies]. This attack [auto-hits]. This effect [applies once per Crash]." If "This effect" applies only to the upgrade - and it has to, because only the upgrade cares about Crashes - then "This attack" must, as well.

I do agree that clearer separation would be helpful, though - as demonstrated, heh.

The way I read it, the upgrade expand the aplicability of [this attack]. So, [this attack] = AWD. Of course, it's very dubious. In the end, I thought it would be more interesting that the charm got a reset condition and auto hit (instead of being used every decisive attack, given the low cost), so that's how I chose to interpret it. Anyway, I can easily see other people adjucating it other way.

[Irked]

V1.3 is up! Patched Reed in the Wind, as per suggestions above.

As others have noted, all of the prerequisite information is already freely available through fan supplements, so I'm assuming there's no harm in including that information in mine - prereqs added back in. (As above, if this is a misunderstanding, please let me know.)

I'll keep an eye on the thread, so if anyone does find other issues, let me know!

[NimmieAmee]

Hey Irked, another shout out to you for the solar charm rewrite in one of our latest Sponsored By Nobody game sessions/podcast episodes!

http://atrusilk.podbean.com/e/exalted-princes-of-the-universe-season-03-episode-01/

[Irked]

Oh, cool - thanks! I hope you guys get some use out of it.

Relatedly: I've made a few patches since the last update here. It was pointed out to me that the "Initiative lost during a flurry" rules cause some awkwardness with, say, Heavenly Guardian Defense: if you don't lose Initiative until the attack is over, how much do you have available to spend on HGD? All of it? (Can you spend it twice?) None of it? What?

So I changed those rules from this

If a magical flurry or similar effect would tell you to make multiple Decisive attacks, you typically wait until all such attacks
have resolved before determining the change to your Initiative. If all such attacks missed, you lose 2i per attack. If any attack
hit, you instead reset to base Initiative. If any effect would change your Initiative in the middle of the flurry (for instance,
if you suffer a Withering Counterattack), apply that change after resolving the changes above. (This can mean that, after
resolving an entire magical flurry, you are Crashed by an enemy attack made partway through that flurry.)

to this:

If a magical flurry or similar effect would tell you to make multiple Decisive attacks, you typically wait until all such attacks
have resolved before determining the change to your Initiative. If none of your attacks successfully hit the target, you lose 2i
per attack. If any attack hit, you instead reset to base Initiative.

If any effect would change your Initiative in the middle of a flurry (for example, if you would suffer a Withering
Counterattack), you must pay the cost for any such effects out of the Initiative assigned to any attacks in the flurry for which
damage has not yet resolved, with your choice for how to distribute the cost between the attacks. If this would reduce any
attack to zero damage dice, do not resolve that attack. No attack may be reduced below 0 Initiative, but you must pay as
much of the cost as you can.

After the flurry resolves, consider your Initiative at the time of the start of the attack, and then modify this value for any
changes in Initiative mid-flurry, even if this is a greater reduction than was actually possible during the flurry. Finally, if
none of your attacks succeeded, subtract 2i per attack, as above; if any attacks succeeded, you reset to base Initiative. (This
can mean that an attacker who was Crashed mid-flurry immediately recovers from Crash, as long as one of his attacks before
Crashing succeeded.)

If at any point in this resolution process your total Initiative drops to 0 Initiative or less, the character whose actions most
directly caused that change receives an Initiative Break bonus as normal.

If a Charm would create a series of separate reflexive attacks, such as those provided by the Solar Charm Swarm-Culling
Instinct, those attacks are not a flurry and do not use these rules.

plus some supporting examples. I also tweaked the rules for attacks beyond maximum range and fixed a typo in Swarm-Cullling Instinct.

[BlueWinds]

Oh, cool - thanks! I hope you guys get some use out of it.

Relatedly: I've made a few patches since the last update here. It was pointed out to me that the "Initiative lost during a flurry" rules cause some awkwardness with, say, Heavenly Guardian Defense: if you don't lose Initiative until the attack is over, how much do you have available to spend on HGD? All of it? (Can you spend it twice?) None of it? What?

So I changed those rules from this

to this:

plus some supporting examples. I also tweaked the rules for attacks beyond maximum range and fixed a typo in Swarm-Cullling Instinct.

Hm. The new wording makes things clear (I understand how to resolve any given situation) but at the same time it seems complex enough that I'd have to refer back to the rules repeatedly during play. The version I went with acts a bit differently - when you take damage during a flurry it doesn't steal initiative out of still-to-come attacks - but it does seem to take a lot less text, unless I'm missing some cases that yours covers.

If a charm grants a character multiple attacks, she does not reset to base after each attack.

• If any effect causes her to crash in the middle of a multi-attack (a counterattack or dodge charms sapping her initiative, for example), she loses any remaining attacks.
• After all attacks complete, if she isn't crashed:
  • If she hit with at least one attack, she resets to base initiative.
  • If all attacks missed, she loses initiative as though she'd only missed with one.

Maybe a more flowchart-style writeup would help?

[Irked]

Hm. Under yours, what happens if you are hit by a Withering counterattack in the middle of a flurry, but not substantially enough to Crash you? Or what happens if you block a Decisive counterattack by throwing up Heavenly Guardian Defense - how much Initiative can you spend? where does that Initiative come from?

(These were the problems mine had, and the reason I had to abandon the simple thing I was otherwise pretty happy with. I don't like the complexity, but I don't see how else to give an unambiguous resolution.)

A flowchart probably wouldn't be bad here, yeah.

[BlueWinds]

Hm. Under yours, what happens if you are hit by a Withering counterattack in the middle of a flurry, but not substantially enough to Crash you? Or what happens if you block a Decisive counterattack by throwing up Heavenly Guardian Defense - how much Initiative can you spend? where does that Initiative come from?

(These were the problems mine had, and the reason I had to abandon the simple thing I was otherwise pretty happy with. I don't like the complexity, but I don't see how else to give an unambiguous resolution.)

A flowchart probably wouldn't be bad here, yeah.

I'm not sure how those are ambiguous under the rules I posted. Your initiative doesn't reset, and you don't lose initiative for missed attacks until the flurry ends. If you crash, the flurry ends immediately. So...

If you're hit by a withering counterattack in the middle of an attack, it is resolved as normal immediately - no special rules. It might reduce your initiative or not. Once the flurry ends, you either reset or lose initiative.

If you use a charm that costs initiative in the midst of a flurry, you use it like normal, no special rules - you have as much initiative to spend as you happen to have. Once the flurry ends, you either reset or lose initiative or reset.

[Irked]

I'm not sure how those are ambiguous under the rules I posted. Your initiative doesn't reset, and you don't lose initiative for missed attacks until the flurry ends. If you crash, the flurry ends immediately. So...

If you're hit by a withering counterattack in the middle of an attack, it is resolved as normal immediately - no special rules. It might reduce your initiative or not. Once the flurry ends, you either reset or lose initiative.

If you use a charm that costs initiative in the midst of a flurry, you use it like normal, no special rules - you have as much initiative to spend as you happen to have. Once the flurry ends, you either reset or lose initiative or reset.

Hm. So, say I'm at 20i, and I make a magical flurry that, say, splits that into four attacks with 5i each. Somewhere in the middle of the resolution for that, I get smacked by a Withering attack for 19i. Somewhere else in there, I get hit by a Decisive and spend 19i defending myself via HGD. Also, suppose all four of my attacks land.

I still deal 20i damage and reset to 3i at the end, then? Because that just feels weird to me - it seems like I'm spending the Initiative three times over, as long as the Initiative loss doesn't roll all the way over to Crashed. I don't know that it's ambiguous, but it just seems hinky to me, y'know?

Maybe at the end of the day simple trumps hinky, there, but that's what pushed me this direction, if that makes sense.

[BlueWinds]

Hm. So, say I'm at 20i, and I make a magical flurry that, say, splits that into four attacks with 5i each. Somewhere in the middle of the resolution for that, I get smacked by a Withering attack for 19i. Somewhere else in there, I get hit by a Decisive and spend 19i defending myself via HGD. Also, suppose all four of my attacks land.

I still deal 20i damage and reset to 3i at the end, then? Because that just feels weird to me - it seems like I'm spending the Initiative three times over, as long as the Initiative loss doesn't roll all the way over to Crashed. I don't know that it's ambiguous, but it just seems hinky to me, y'know?

Maybe at the end of the day simple trumps hinky, there, but that's what pushed me this direction, if that makes sense.

After the withering attack you can't spend 19i on HGD, because you've already been reduced to 1i by the damage. So yeah, you could spend it twice, but not three times. Also, when you spend yourself to 1i, you're then very easy to crash with a second counterattack. So yes you can gain some benefit, but you're also risking crashing and losing the rest of your attacks.

It does seem a little strange, but that bothers me less than having multiple paragraphs of text dedicated to charm interactions. Your choice of course, just suggesting alternate options.

[Irked]

After the withering attack you can't spend 19i on HGD, because you've already been reduced to 1i by the damage. So yeah, you could spend it twice, but not three times. Also, when you spend yourself to 1i, you're then very easy to crash with a second counterattack. So yes you can gain some benefit, but you're also risking crashing and losing the rest of your attacks.

Ahhh, okay. I think that's the ambiguity I was trying to get at: what happens to your Initiative during the flurry? And the answer seems to be, "It functions as normal, but changes to it don't have any other effect on the flurry (unless you're Crashed)."

That may be the better way to go, even given the "spend it twice" oddness. I need to ponder on that.

It does seem a little strange, but that bothers me less than having multiple paragraphs of text dedicated to charm interactions. Your choice of course, just suggesting alternate options.

Oh, yeah, likewise!