[Complete] Ex3 Solar Charm rewrite

[Totentanz]

Saw a criticism that flavorless Phantom Arrow Technique didn't line up with the default effect, and, well, here you go, Random 4chan Anon Who Will Probably Never Read This. Version 2.21 hotpatches as per your critique; thanks for noting the non-Charm dice part.

(I hope to bring some of this stuff more closely in line with TDO's new rules clarifications at some point in the not-too-distant future. I also hope to not ever need a document like this again, because yay clear and unambiguous rules; all hail the glorious puppycat future.)


Hey, so, missed this reply entirely, but: the answer is "because UH&TD has a lot more rules text than the other two, and it wouldn't fit on the front."

You are awesome, and you should feel awesome.

[Irked]

Saw a criticism that flavorless Phantom Arrow Technique didn't line up with the default effect, and, well, here you go, Random 4chan Anon Who Will Probably Never Read This. Version 2.21 hotpatches as per your critique; thanks for noting the non-Charm dice part.

(I hope to bring some of this stuff more closely in line with TDO's new rules clarifications at some point in the not-too-distant future. I also hope to not ever need a document like this again, because yay clear and unambiguous rules; all hail the glorious puppycat future.)

I am looking through them currently, and I'm curious why "unsurpassed hearing and touch discipline" has a thing on the back when the other two don't.

Hey, so, missed this reply entirely, but: the answer is "because UH&TD has a lot more rules text than the other two, and it wouldn't fit on the front."

[Aranfan]

You're very welcome! Let me know if you see any glitches - stuff running off the page, etc.

I am looking through them currently, and I'm curious why "unsurpassed hearing and touch discipline" has a thing on the back when the other two don't.

[Irked]

You're very welcome! Let me know if you see any glitches - stuff running off the page, etc.

[Aranfan]

Huzzah! Thanks for the charm cards.

[Irked]

Still considering some of Aranfan's comments above, but in the meantime...

Hey, you know what's cool about macros? You can swap them from "print normal text" to "print business cards" in about ten minutes, counting the time to learn a couple of new LaTeX packages. Then all that's left is making sure all the text actually fits.

Speaking of which, in honor of OPP's most recent Kickstarter announcement: Charm cards! As with the normal document, these include both corebook and MotSE Charms, and any Charm with a reset condition has that condition printed on the back for easy reference - just flip the Charm when you use it, and flip it back when it's ready to go.

[Irked]

Pretty sure things that reroll/explode dice don't count against your standard dice cap. Doesn't the DB quick-character section have an Excellency-alike that lets him reroll failed dice, with an example of buying up a full Excellency then using it to reroll dice too?

The technical wording in this case is, originally, something like "Roll an additional die for each 10." Is that a rewording of "Reroll..." or an intentionally different effect? Who knows?

[RCa]

Pretty sure things that reroll/explode dice don't count against your standard dice cap. Doesn't the DB quick-character section have an Excellency-alike that lets him reroll failed dice, with an example of buying up a full Excellency then using it to reroll dice too?

[Aranfan]

I think my initial reaction is, "Well, don't do that, especially if this Charm is in play." The other causes weird interactions as well - what happens if I botch a roll, but only against one person? What happens if I have Charms that key off of "every two-success number rolled," which apply, except against this one person?

There are extreme edge cases where it's different, but that seems pretty niche to me.

It doesn't seem that niche to me.

Also, you didn't fix Awakening Eye even though your version doesn't help against Fivefold Shadow Burial.

Not sure whether I follow you. My houserules have general-case "ranged clash attack" rules, if that's what you're asking? Using this Charm with those rules still shifts its effect around a little bit - or at least, may shift its effect around, depending on your interpretation. I'd rather call that out unnecessarily than miss it, if that makes sense.

Fair enough.

Maybe. Some of this runs to, "Is the functionality what they actually wrote, or what they likely(?) intended by what they wrote?"

Fair Enough.

Do NPCs with a pool of 4 matter, though? Is that an edge case that we need to preserve for a 5m Charm, when 5m worth of Excellencies will give you more pool than they have altogether?

Battle Ready Troops have four dice in senses. Which makes them the most common and likely opponent for any story involved in trying to sneak into a Realm Army base to steal stuff or the like. And it's different from the excellency because Night's Eye Meditation can be activated retroactively, while the excellency can't.

Yes, that's different from RAW. Attacker declares everything, defender declares everything, then roll, unless a Charm specifically calls itself out as an exception. (Drifting Shadow Elusion, for instance, is an exception; Dipping Swallow Defense is not.)

Whoops.

(Re: Arc Shedding Rain.) I disagree. It's not clear what the original functionality is, but John explicitly says it's supposed to be read in a way that creates openings for SWA

Fair Enough.

The latter is statistically irrelevant at the level I noted above. The former, again, goes to "What do you think the intent was?" which we can legitimately disagree on.

Statistical irrelevance and felt experience are very different. I feel it would be worthwhile to have originals for ones that are basically statistically identical but feel different in play.

(Re. Tiger Warrior's Endurance.) No, that's not true. Here's the relevant quote: "This power [i.e., the healing effect] may be invoked once per fight, and the player may dictate when this effect triggers, choosing to save it for a later crash." It's the sentence after that that deals with the Reset.

Ah.

Sure. My point is that these are the alternatives:
1) First hour I spend 4m (or whatever); next hour I spend 4m, recovering the last four; next hour I spend 4m, recovering the last four; repeat as needed. At the end of this process, I am down: 4m.
2) I commit 4m for the duration. At the end of this process, I am down: 4m.

Just because things are the same at the start and the finish doesn't mean there can't be differences in the middle. And that can matter. For instance, it will effect how much you respire if you are using other charms during that time. I think.

I don't think it does; they commit for up to one day (i.e., the duration of HSMS) regardless.

Huh.

I do, yes, but both versions of Salty Dog Method specify that they resist terror effects from monsters, demons, etc., not from all sources.

Fair Enough.

That may be so!

So as I said before, I think it deserves an original if you changed the dice trick to something else.

But the quantity of reinforcements is the same regardless. You still get just as many reinforcements in mine, they just come all at once.

Ah I missed that bit last night, in that case I think the original is weaker since I think it stops if you lose size, which can happen if a major desicive attack hits from an exalt.

[Irked]

Here's a scenario: there's someone making a commotion and someone pickpocketing the character. The GM asks for one Perception+Awareness check against two different difficulties, one to notice the pickpocketing and one to notice that the guy making the commotion is working with the pickpocket. In that case adding the successes to you will give a different result than taking them from the pickpocket.

I think my initial reaction is, "Well, don't do that, especially if this Charm is in play." The other causes weird interactions as well - what happens if I botch a roll, but only against one person? What happens if I have Charms that key off of "every two-success number rolled," which apply, except against this one person?

There are extreme edge cases where it's different, but that seems pretty niche to me.

I think that would be in the houserules rather than the charm proper, right?

Not sure whether I follow you. My houserules have general-case "ranged clash attack" rules, if that's what you're asking? Using this Charm with those rules still shifts its effect around a little bit - or at least, may shift its effect around, depending on your interpretation. I'd rather call that out unnecessarily than miss it, if that makes sense.

Even so, different functionality.

Maybe. Some of this runs to, "Is the functionality what they actually wrote, or what they likely(?) intended by what they wrote?"

Even so, for NPCs with dicepools of 4 it really can matter.

Do NPCs with a pool of 4 matter, though? Is that an edge case that we need to preserve for a 5m Charm, when 5m worth of Excellencies will give you more pool than they have altogether?

Does that mean I've been using the excellency's ability to enhance my Parry incorrectly? I've been doing it after the dice have been rolled.

Yes, that's different from RAW. Attacker declares everything, defender declares everything, then roll, unless a Charm specifically calls itself out as an exception. (Drifting Shadow Elusion, for instance, is an exception; Dipping Swallow Defense is not.)

Even so, different functionality.

(Re: Arc Shedding Rain.) I disagree. It's not clear what the original functionality is, but John explicitly says it's supposed to be read in a way that creates openings for SWA

It doesn't say non-charm dice so..; it also has a limit based on essence on how many 10s can recur.

The latter is statistically irrelevant at the level I noted above. The former, again, goes to "What do you think the intent was?" which we can legitimately disagree on.

Well, that depends on how you interpret +1 stat, which we've established is a can of worms because of ISE.

Yeppers.

The first sentence says whenever, your talking about the reset condition.

(Re. Tiger Warrior's Endurance.) No, that's not true. Here's the relevant quote: "This power [i.e., the healing effect] may be invoked once per fight, and the player may dictate when this effect triggers, choosing to save it for a later crash." It's the sentence after that that deals with the Reset.

How long the horse can travel without you spending motes again. Remember that committed motes don't respire.

Sure. My point is that these are the alternatives:
1) First hour I spend 4m (or whatever); next hour I spend 4m, recovering the last four; next hour I spend 4m, recovering the last four; repeat as needed. At the end of this process, I am down: 4m.
2) I commit 4m for the duration. At the end of this process, I am down: 4m.

It changes how long the motes stay committed.

I don't think it does; they commit for up to one day (i.e., the duration of HSMS) regardless.

You do have the Dawn Anima having the Terror Keyword, yes?

I do, yes, but both versions of Salty Dog Method specify that they resist terror effects from monsters, demons, etc., not from all sources.

I guess I'm more sensitive to changes in the dice tricks. Even if there isn't a difference statistically, people are bad at statistics and the feel of what's happening is very different between the original and yours.

That may be so!

The original gives you a steady drip of reinforcements, so when the opponent makes a successful attack you effectively take 2 less damage each turn until you run out.

But the quantity of reinforcements is the same regardless. You still get just as many reinforcements in mine, they just come all at once.

[Childofthesun1]

You guys are seriously awesome. Seriously. Thanks for working to clarify the use of house rules in this insanely useful document. It's a big help.

(I already have a packet of info to replace rules in 3e? God damn Scroll of Errata all over again!)

[Aranfan]

... are, for all intents and purposes, the same Charms they've always been. The original version of Unswerving Eye subtracts successes from your opponent, but only for you, which does a bizarre thing where the opponent has to answer two different ways when asked how many successes he rolled... and, so far as I can tell, doesn't resolve any differently than just giving those successes to you.

Here's a scenario: there's someone making a commotion and someone pickpocketing the character. The GM asks for one Perception+Awareness check against two different difficulties, one to notice the pickpocketing and one to notice that the guy making the commotion is working with the pickpocket. In that case adding the successes to you will give a different result than taking them from the pickpocket.

Check the footnote; again, that's "impose an interpretation," because there are no rules for Clashing ranged attacks in general.

I think that would be in the houserules rather than the charm proper, right?

Ah, because I say "attack action" and the other says "combat." That's a good catch - thank you!

yep.

Imposes an interpretation. I suspect if someone asked, "Can you SSE a WDD?" the intent would be yes.

Even so, different functionality.

But it's not a "Whenever X, Y;" it's a "at some point during the day of your choice, which might not be the first Barter action you make, Y." If it was every Barter action, I'd leave it Perm/Perm.

bah, I somehow didn't see that last night.

It actually does - it's right above it.

that's what I get for doing it so late at night.

People don't botch. Like - yes, technically, this could cause a botch. But the odds of an eight-die pool containing no 7s, 8s, or 9s, and also containing at least one 1 and at least one 10, are something under 3%, and it drops off sharply from there.

Even so, for NPCs with dicepools of 4 it really can matter.

Nope, Reflexive doesn't actually change activation timing. The Charm would have to say it can be activated after dice are rolled, regardless of its type, in order to be declared later - there should be literally no change in the Charm's effect.

(It wold be nice if Reflexive meant something like that, though!)

Does that mean I've been using the excellency's ability to enhance my Parry incorrectly? I've been doing it after the dice have been rolled.

The original is unclear in its effect. It's clearly supposed to enable SWA, because the commentary literally says it's supposed to do this, and yet it... doesn't. This is another of those "I'unno, pick an interpretation" things.

Even so, different functionality.

Do you think the published SET counts against your dice cap? I honestly hadn't considered that and would still tend to assume it doesn't.

It doesn't say non-charm dice so..; it also has a limit based on essence on how many 10s can recur.

But the original will let you raise your stats directly, which has the side-effect of increasing your Defense, and that's uncapped. I don't understand why the Defense clause is even in the original Charm, because "buff my Defense stats" pretty clearly works, yeah?

Well, that depends on how you interpret +1 stat, which we've established is a can of worms because of ISE.

Neither does the printed one - look at the last sentence, where it says you can decide which recovery triggers it.

The first sentence says whenever, your talking about the reset condition.

In both cases, you respire more motes in an hour than you spent maintaining the Charm. What difference does it make?

How long the horse can travel without you spending motes again. Remember that committed motes don't respire.

Function's unchanged.

It changes how long the motes stay committed.

Solars, contra Immaculate propaganda, aren't demons; bonus doesn't apply in either case.

You do have the Dawn Anima having the Terror Keyword, yes?

You know, that first part is fair. The second part does not make a lick of statistical difference, but I'll change for the first bit.

I guess I'm more sensitive to changes in the dice tricks. Even if there isn't a difference statistically, people are bad at statistics and the feel of what's happening is very different between the original and yours.

How so?

The original gives you a steady drip of reinforcements, so when the opponent makes a successful attack you effectively take 2 less damage each turn until you run out.

Right?

This was very helpful - thank you! V2.2 up now.

No problem, happy to help.

[Irked]

Godspeed Steps doesn't have the original even though you changed it to supplemental, which I think may qualify.

I want to clarify: I'm not attempting to provide originals where my version:
-does the same thing, but with cleaner typing/durations,
-does something that is effectively statistically identical to the original, or
-does what may be the same thing, but who knows what the original was supposed to do?

So, for instance, these:

Living Wind Approach doesn't have the original even though you increased it's applicability to any magic contesting it (such as hypothetical future charms) instead of only other solars using Living Wind Approach.

Unswerving Eye doesn't have the original even though the function is different.

... are, for all intents and purposes, the same Charms they've always been. The original version of Unswerving Eye subtracts successes from your opponent, but only for you, which does a bizarre thing where the opponent has to answer two different ways when asked how many successes he rolled... and, so far as I can tell, doesn't resolve any differently than just giving those successes to you. Living Wind Approach is only defined to conflict with itself - but if it does conflict with other hypothetical magic at some point down the road, surely it uses the same resolution rules.

And if it doesn't, who knows what it does? Which segues nicely into...

Increasing Strength Exercise is a can of worms.

... because, again, who knows what it does? "+1 Strength" could mean a half-dozen different things.

Fire Eating Fist is marked Modified and doesn't have an original, but I can't find any difference in the text.

Check the footnote; again, that's "impose an interpretation," because there are no rules for Clashing ranged attacks in general.

Raging Wrath Repeated doesn't have the original even though yours only lets you make additional attacks instead of doing a drag action or a release action.

Ah, because I say "attack action" and the other says "combat." That's a good catch - thank you!

Wicked Dissolve Dust doesn't have the original.

Imposes an interpretation. I suspect if someone asked, "Can you SSE a WDD?" the intent would be yes.

Empowered Barter Stance is Reflexive/Instant even though it's a "Whenever X, Y" type effect, which you said would be Perm/Perm for you.

But it's not a "Whenever X, Y;" it's a "at some point during the day of your choice, which might not be the first Barter action you make, Y." If it was every Barter action, I'd leave it Perm/Perm.

Celestial Reforging Technique doesn't say how it's modified or give an original.

Thanks; de-modifying.

Integrity Protecting Prana doesn't have an original even though your version doesn't make the Exalt aware the trigger has happened, only the player.

Ooh, that does need a "You are aware" clause. Thanks!

Phoenix Renewal Tactic doesn't have the original.

It actually does - it's right above it.

Night's Eye Meditation doesn't have the original, even though your version can cause the opponent to botch when the original can't.

People don't botch. Like - yes, technically, this could cause a botch. But the odds of an eight-die pool containing no 7s, 8s, or 9s, and also containing at least one 1 and at least one 10, are something under 3%, and it drops off sharply from there.

Voice Caging Calligraphy doesn't have an original even though yours can autopersuade Chejop Kejack to support the Solars return and he just can't tell anyone, according to my reading.

Ah, the wording of "Make a Persuade action" is unclear - thank you.

Bottomless Wellspring Approach is "whenever x, y", but you have it as Reflexive/Instant.

You know, that's fair. Reverting.

All Knowing Enlightened Sovergin doesn't have a footnote.

Ha, that's because it was supposed to be tagged \motsecharm, not \mcharm. Thanks.

Will Bolstering Method, what is the touch keyword? Looking at your houserules it seems like it's something that is unique to your group. Won't mention it further when that's the only modification.

Yeah, it's just a systematizing of the Rules For Touching Things that are otherwise defined separately in every place they show up. Presumably you don't have to work too hard to touch someone to give them Willpower, but consistency!

Life Sculpting Hands doesn't have the original even though yours doesn't have the once per scene restriction.

Whoops.

Gleaming Sever doesn't have an original even though you changed it to supplemental, therefore stopping you from using it after defensive charms are declared, if I remember the timing rules correctly.
...
Killing Shroud Technique doesn't have an original even though the original is reflexive and can be invoked after defensive charms have been declared if I remember timing rules correctly.

Nope, Reflexive doesn't actually change activation timing. The Charm would have to say it can be activated after dice are rolled, regardless of its type, in order to be declared later - there should be literally no change in the Charm's effect.

(It wold be nice if Reflexive meant something like that, though!)

Arc Shedding Rain Technique doesn't have an original.

The original is unclear in its effect. It's clearly supposed to enable SWA, because the commentary literally says it's supposed to do this, and yet it... doesn't. This is another of those "I'unno, pick an interpretation" things.

Six Eternities' Travails doesn't have an original even though your version is stronger (the original doesn't add non-charm dice when recurring-10s basically do, among other things).

Do you think the published SET counts against your dice cap? I honestly hadn't considered that and would still tend to assume it doesn't.

Empowering Shout doesn't have an original even though the functionality is different (It says you can add to a defense but raising it past 7 counts as dice added by a charm, while yours will get my ISP to 8 Parry without it counting as added by a charm. Also, by implication you can't use empowering shout for Resolve or Guile, unless your table considers them social defenses).

But the original will let you raise your stats directly, which has the side-effect of increasing your Defense, and that's uncapped. I don't understand why the Defense clause is even in the original Charm, because "buff my Defense stats" pretty clearly works, yeah?

Authority Radiating Stance, you should really add your terminology and new keywords to this document if you're going to reference them so much.

I'll think about that!

Tiger Warrior's Endurance doesn't have an original even though yours doesn't trigger automatically.

Neither does the printed one - look at the last sentence, where it says you can decide which recovery triggers it.

Flashing Thunderbolt Steed doesn't have an original.

Wind Racing Essence Infusion doesn't have an original.

In both cases, you respire more motes in an hour than you spent maintaining the Charm. What difference does it make?

Storm Racing Destrier doesn't have an original.

Function's unchanged.

I don't think the original Salty Dog Method protects you from a dawn's anima, but I may be wrong.

Solars, contra Immaculate propaganda, aren't demons; bonus doesn't apply in either case.

Viper Scenting Method isn't marked modified even though you changed the duration and type, and it may need an original.

Function's unchanged, though. Original VSM is still piggybacking off of MoSM, with identical duration.

Swarm Culling Instinct lacks an original even though the functionality is different because of effects that prey on 1s. Also, recurring tens lets you get more than twice as many successes as you have dice, the original doesn't.

You know, that first part is fair. The second part does not make a lick of statistical difference, but I'll change for the first bit.

Supremacy of the Divine Army doesn't have an original, even though yours is weaker.

How so?

Phew.

Right?

This was very helpful - thank you! V2.2 up now.

[Aranfan]

I'm going to go through and look for modified charms that don't have the original, comparing to the corebook to see if the functionality is basically the same.

-

Onrush Burst Method is marked modified without a footnote or an original version, comparing to the corebook, your version is a reflexive/instant that requries the rush action to be supplemented by an athletics charm to gain the 3 motes, while the one in the corebook is perm/perm and gives you 3 motes for athletics charms whenever you successfully do a rush action.

Godspeed Steps doesn't have the original even though you changed it to supplemental, which I think may qualify.

Living Wind Approach doesn't have the original even though you increased it's applicability to any magic contesting it (such as hypothetical future charms) instead of only other solars using Living Wind Approach.

Increasing Strength Exercise is a can of worms.

Unswerving Eye doesn't have the original even though the function is different.

Awakening Eye doesn't have the original even though the function is different.

Fire Eating Fist is marked Modified and doesn't have an original, but I can't find any difference in the text.

Raging Wrath Repeated doesn't have the original even though yours only lets you make additional attacks instead of doing a drag action or a release action.

Wicked Dissolve Dust doesn't have the original.

Empowered Barter Stance is Reflexive/Instant even though it's a "Whenever X, Y" type effect, which you said would be Perm/Perm for you.

Design Beyond Limit is wonky.

Celestial Reforging Technique doesn't say how it's modified or give an original.

Integrity Protecting Prana doesn't have an original even though your version doesn't make the Exalt aware the trigger has happened, only the player.

Phoenix Renewal Tactic doesn't have the original.

Soul Nourishing Technique doesn't have the original, or a footnote.

Night's Eye Meditation doesn't have the original, even though your version can cause the opponent to botch when the original can't.

Voice Caging Calligraphy doesn't have an original even though yours can autopersuade Chejop Kejack to support the Solars return and he just can't tell anyone, according to my reading.

Legendary Scholar's Curriculum doesn't have it's original marked as such.

Bottomless Wellspring Approach is "whenever x, y", but you have it as Reflexive/Instant.

Sacred Relic Understanding doesn't have a footnote.

All Knowing Enlightened Sovergin doesn't have a footnote.

Prophet of Seventeen Cycles doesn't have a footnote.

Will Bolstering Method, what is the touch keyword? Looking at your houserules it seems like it's something that is unique to your group. Won't mention it further when that's the only modification.

Force Draining Whisper doesn't have the original even though yours can be used in response to counterattacks while the original can't.

Wyld Shaping Technique is probably in the same boat as Increasing Strength Exercise.

Life Sculpting Hands doesn't have the original even though yours doesn't have the once per scene restriction.

Gleaming Sever doesn't have an original even though you changed it to supplemental, therefore stopping you from using it after defensive charms are declared, if I remember the timing rules correctly.

Omniscient Focus Attack doesn't have a footnote.

Arc Shedding Rain Technique doesn't have an original.

Dark-Minder's Observances doesn't have an original even though yours lets them learn a ritual when they go up in essence when the original doesn't.

Six Eternities' Travails doesn't have an original even though your version is stronger (the original doesn't add non-charm dice when recurring-10s basically do, among other things).

Fury Inciting Speech doesn't have an original, even though the function is different.

Thousand Courtesan Ways is a can of worms because of ISE

Empowering Shout doesn't have an original even though the functionality is different (It says you can add to a defense but raising it past 7 counts as dice added by a charm, while yours will get my ISP to 8 Parry without it counting as added by a charm. Also, by implication you can't use empowering shout for Resolve or Guile, unless your table considers them social defenses).

Worshipful Lackey Acquisition is Reflexive/Instant even though it's a thing true of the solar.

Authority Radiating Stance, you should really add your terminology and new keywords to this document if you're going to reference them so much.

Tiger Warrior's Endurance doesn't have an original even though yours doesn't trigger automatically.

Flashing Thunderbolt Steed doesn't have an original.

Wind Racing Essence Infusion doesn't have an original.

Storm Racing Destrier doesn't have an original.

I don't think the original Salty Dog Method protects you from a dawn's anima, but I may be wrong.

Ship Razing Renewal is Reflexive/Instance even though it's a "whenever X, Y" effect.

Viper Scenting Method isn't marked modified even though you changed the duration and type, and it may need an original.

Preeminent Gala Knife doesn't have an original, even though yours can be used right off without spending on socialize charms first and in the original you could use the motes on whatever.

Endless Obsession Feint doesn't have an original even though yours doesn't automatically happen when the trigger is met.

Killing Shroud Technique doesn't have an original even though the original is reflexive and can be invoked after defensive charms have been declared if I remember timing rules correctly.

Swarm Culling Instinct lacks an original even though the functionality is different because of effects that prey on 1s. Also, recurring tens lets you get more than twice as many successes as you have dice, the original doesn't.

Supremacy of the Divine Army doesn't have an original, even though yours is weaker.

--

Phew.

[Aranfan]

You don't seem to have produced the original of Awakening Eye. Which does matter because there are stealth effects that prey on 1s.

Edit: you also didn't produce an original version of Unswerving Eye, which I think can differ from the original charm when the GM asks for Per+Awareness rolls to notice multiple people doing multiple things.