Mental Stability of newly Exalted Solars?

[Meianno Yuurei]

I forget where, but I'm pretty sure there's been an angle of "Creation will last at least another Age". But yes, applying a ton of things to try and discredit the Great Prophecy does a disservice to the setting for no gain. The Great Prophecy and the Usurpation are more plot device than anything; the intent behind them is "We need a reason the Solars were gone and the world was lessened so they can return as great heroes", and the sidereals happen to be written into a uniquely applicable position for such a purpose.

In my estimation, the Vision of Gold mostly exists for a what-if? scenario of playing Sidereals attempting the Vision of Gold before the Usurpation occurs, more than any true "This is an objectively correct path". If nothing else, it's a weighting of averages.

I make you a bet. Russian Roulette. If you hit a bullet you die. If you hit an empty chamber, you walk out a millionaire. How many chambers need to be empty for this bet to be worth it?

Now let's step it up. If you die, I will hunt down your family and kill them. If you live, your entire family is prosperous and happy. Does this alter the number of chambers that need to be empty? I mean it's good for your entire family if you win, but... if you lose, everyone you love dies as well.

Let's step it up again. If you die, I make the sun go supernova. Everyone dies. If you win, the world magically becomes prosperous and glorious. Does this alter the number of chambers that need to be empty for this to sound like a fair deal?

The way I've always seen the Vision of Gold, it was always unfavorable odds. If you'll only risk it with one bullet loaded, there's three. If you'll risk 50/50 odds, there's 4 or 5 bullets. If you're okay with one empty chamber, the revolver is fully loaded and you have to hope for a factory defect on a bullet. It was a long-shot, one that would have reaped unimaginable wonders if it succeeded, but which was fraught with peril and would doom the entire world on failure.

A path only PCs would pursue.

[Erinys]

I would argue that the entire premise of Exalted, the Usurpation and almost the entirety of the Sidereal player experience are ruined if the takeaway is, "The Great Prophecy was never accurate or credible to begin with and the Sidereal were complete, blithering morons for following it." Really, when the Sidereal's were on par with the Three Stooges in concerns of the Prophecy, and the Prophecy and subsequent Usurpation is supposed to be the cornerstone of Exalted's setting, that doesn't really set a good tone for the game.

Agreed! That's why I'm so unhappy with the way Sidereals are written.
But I can't pretend it isn't written that way.

[nalak42]

Agreed! That's why I'm so unhappy with the way Sidereals are written.
But I can't pretend it isn't written that way.

Can't really say they're being stupid with the prophecies though. I mean the Rhaksha, demons, and ghosts don't show up in Fate, so even if they followed up Bronze with "How long will that peace last?" Nothing was going to show up. I mean one could argue that was part of the point of making the prophecy about not doing anything. One find out if the situation is going to improve on it's own, two how bad would the situation get in a vacuum. They can't account for things outside the system, but there's definitely a bit of a difference between the world is going to get a little screwed up and the world will be totally obliterated. So as soon as they get the sign that says "If left to their own devices the world will become something we can generously call a hellhole on it's best day." Well what are the odds that the Rhaksha will improve the situation on not doing anything, and they still had the Incarnae and the other gods and elementals if anything happened it was going to be a harder fight, but something like the Balorean Crusade had never happened before so they were blindsided by it. The Great Contagion was designed by the Deathlords, and nothing like them had ever existed, so can't reasonably say the Sids were being stupid for not anticipating a super disease cooked up by super exalt ghosts was going to happen. The Yozi are dealt with 3CD are the worst that are coming out and those were a known commodity with methods of dealing with them being available.

Just my little issue with people arguing the Sids were being idiots with the Great Prophecies since there are blindspots in their ability to prophesize. And if anyone wants to bring up Samsara I will point out that first I don't know if the Sids know the Maidens have that, but as far as anyone who knows is concerned it also binds the viewers to what they see meaning for all they would know looking into it would bind them to a terrible option even if they didn't want it.

[Ghosthead]

The thing for me is that if your choice of the Prophecy is ostensibly between

a1) safety or b1) glory

and then you go "Actually choosing b), glory, might make us safer after all, because we need defenders of against all the things we can't account for in your model" then that transforms your choices into a2) maybe more safety, b2) glory+maybe more safety.

And I can see why people might think then a2 is the choice for "chumps" against b2.

But this is what we get from Sidereals not being able to see out of Fate, and out of Fate being chock of dangerous, apocalyptic stuff which the game is sets up Solars to handle.

Admittedly, this is all without the nuance of, maybe for human reasons and immediacy of threats offered by each path, you might choose a2 over b2. I feel like there should be more than that, myself.

My preference is subvert it by saying that, yes, forces outside of Fate can possible offset the safety offered by the Bronze, yes, but also could be harnessed to provide the glory promised by the Gold (without the Solar Exalted). That gets us back to choosing between two choices that are balanced and not dominated by the other. But in my experience as an Exalted fan, absolutely no one else I've encountered ever has liked the idea of that, so...

[Meianno Yuurei]

Can't really say they're being stupid with the prophecies though. I mean the Rhaksha, demons, and ghosts don't show up in Fate, so even if they followed up Bronze with "How long will that peace last?" Nothing was going to show up. I mean one could argue that was part of the point of making the prophecy about not doing anything. One find out if the situation is going to improve on it's own, two how bad would the situation get in a vacuum. They can't account for things outside the system, but there's definitely a bit of a difference between the world is going to get a little screwed up and the world will be totally obliterated. So as soon as they get the sign that says "If left to their own devices the world will become something we can generously call a hellhole on it's best day." Well what are the odds that the Rhaksha will improve the situation on not doing anything, and they still had the Incarnae and the other gods and elementals if anything happened it was going to be a harder fight, but something like the Balorean Crusade had never happened before so they were blindsided by it. The Great Contagion was designed by the Deathlords, and nothing like them had ever existed, so can't reasonably say the Sids were being stupid for not anticipating a super disease cooked up by super exalt ghosts was going to happen. The Yozi are dealt with 3CD are the worst that are coming out and those were a known commodity with methods of dealing with them being available.

Just my little issue with people arguing the Sids were being idiots with the Great Prophecies since there are blindspots in their ability to prophesize. And if anyone wants to bring up Samsara I will point out that first I don't know if the Sids know the Maidens have that, but as far as anyone who knows is concerned it also binds the viewers to what they see meaning for all they would know looking into it would bind them to a terrible option even if they didn't want it.

Also there's the point that all the things outside fate that were known of were at the time basically non issues.

The raksha were disparate actors concerned only with individual glory and devouring souls; the idea of their putting aside their personal stories in pursuit of a grand destruction of Creation was ridiculous.

The neverborn were slumbering Titans whose nightmares shook the underworld but never reached the surface. What few actors they had to affect the surface were rare and ultimately possible to handle (hekatonkhires and wraiths)

The yozi were long banished and trapped. Their only influence in creation was demons who slipped through the cracks, demons who were summoned, and mad servants trading volition for power. All of which would be lessened by the lack of Solars - no one can summon Ligier, therefore he won't be present.

And then in 2e plot line, the ridiculous happened -- the neverborn acted and empowered ghosts of Solars who encouraged the Balorian crusade and unleashed a grand contagion upon Creation (facts that are still not known to the wider setting; the contagion came from somewhere, the raksha invaded, but the why is only known to us because of omniscient narration.), The yozi and neverborn broke the prison and came into possession of Solar level actors to inflict their rage on Creation.

Calling the sidereals idiots for not expecting this is like calling farmers idiots for not predicting the rise of super intelligent psychic cows - it was completely beyond even mundane prediction, much less the blind spots of fate.

[Erinys]

The raksha were disparate actors concerned only with individual glory and devouring souls; the idea of their putting aside their personal stories in pursuit of a grand destruction of Creation was ridiculous.

Sigh... I tried to resist being pulled into this derail, but I have failed my Temperance roll. I want to respond to just this.

The Raksha made a major invasion of Creation very soon after the Primordial War, seeing Creation weakened without its former defenders at the helm. The combined, united Exalted host beat them back, and eventually the Solars extracted Oaths from the Raksha never to attack Creation again. Those Oaths, which prevented further invasions for the rest of the First Age, were only valid as long as the Solar Deliberative ruled Creation.

Then a free Primordial attacked Creation, and again the Exalted worked together to hold him back. He was only finally defeated by Solars wielding the Sword of Creation. And the Exalted knew there was at least one other hostile Primordial still out there.

The Yozis are bound, but their souls periodically slip into Creation. Who can cast Adamant Banishment? Only a Solar. Who can cast Sapphire Banishment? Only a Lunar, or one of the <100 already-overworked Sidereals. How many Dragon-Blooded or Sidereal lives should be sacrificed to chase Ligier or Munaxes or Erembour back to Malfeas the hard way?
Only a Solar can summon a Third Circle demon deliberately into Creation, which is probably something the Vision of Gold didn't entirely account for.

The Sidereals knew all this. The older ones had lived through all of those events.

The Vision of Bronze is only '100%, guaranteed victory, nothing can possibly ever go wrong, Creation is 100% perfectly safe forever and ever' when pretending things outside of Fate don't exist and assuming that the Vision extends infinite time into the future. When considering all available information -- which is common sense when making important, world-changing decisions -- the Vision of Bronze assures Creation's survival no better than the Vision of Gold. The two Visions were equally risky for Creation. If the Prophecy doesn't account for all variables, well, Exalted can think for themselves too.

What I'd like to see is the Sidereals all being perfectly aware that threats outside of Fate mean that the Vision of Bronze is not 100% guaranteed safety, but as far as they knew approximately as risky as the Vision of Gold. Not having any clear-cut numerical risk-assessment, leaving room for intelligent, decent people to argue that their side is slightly less risky, without being dumb.

[nalak42]

Sigh... I tried to resist being pulled into this derail, but I have failed. I want to respond to just this.

The Raksha made a major invasion of Creation very soon after the Primordial War, seeing Creation weakened without its former defenders at the helm. The combined, united Exalted host beat them back, and eventually the Solars extracted Oaths from the Raksha never to attack Creation again. Those Oaths, which prevented further invasions for the rest of the First Age, were only valid as long as the Solar Deliberative ruled Creation.

Except the Rhaksha couldn't come back in force without an invitation. It's why in 2nd First and Forsaken Lion went out and invited them in. Even with the Great Contagion killing the world they didn't come back until Balor rallied them and they got the invitation, so at the very least the Rhaksha seemed to consider them valid for a long time after the Solars started being dead.

Then a free Primordial attacked Creation, and again the Exalted worked together to hold him back. He was only finally defeated by Solars wielding the Sword of Creation. And the Exalted knew there was at least one other hostile Primordial still out there.

Yeah not like they didn't still have the Imperial Manse, or the Incarnae, or at least one Primordial still on their side.

The Yozis are bound, but their souls periodically slip into Creation. Who can cast Adamant Banishment? Only a Solar. Who can cast Sapphire Banishment? Only a Lunar, or one of the <100 already-overworked Sidereals. How many Dragon-Blooded or Sidereal lives should be sacrificed to chase Ligier or Munaxes or Erembour back to Malfeas the hard way?
Only a Solar can summon a Third Circle demon deliberately into Creation, which is probably something the Vision of Gold didn't entirely account for.

Except without the Solars a 3CD is almost never showing up and most of the time their interested in their own pursuits more than anything else. Again they were willing to throw whatever to end those threats. It was always acknowledged they were going to have a harder time with major threats. Plus from what we've got in 3rd those banishment spells don't exist, so that really isn't viable now a days.

All of this should have been very obvious to the Sidereals. But... they didn't care.

The Vision of Bronze is only '100%, guaranteed victory, nothing can possibly ever go wrong, Creation is 100% perfectly safe forever and ever' when pretending things outside of Fate don't exist and assuming that the Vision extends infinite time into the future. Trying to consider all available information -- which is common sense when making important, world-changing decisions -- the Vision of Bronze assures Creation's survival no better than the Vision of Gold. If the Prophecy doesn't account for all variables, well, Exalted can think for themselves too.

Oh please it was never "Nothing will ever go wrong again the world is perfectly safe forever and ever." It was, "Well we had to take your legs, but you're still alive." They saw what happened if they didn't do anything to deal with the Solars, which left them with the old standby of make the Solars fix it, or launch a coup against the Solars. Heck read the entries on the prophecies in 2nd again, the vision of Bronze technically doesn't account the Jade Prison that was an idea they figured out after the visions to deal with Bronze's forever war against the Solars. And no Gold was not equally likely to make the world as safe as Bronze because Gold included repeated mentions of if anything goes wrong it all goes to pot. It's why Yuurei compared it to high stakes Russian roulette.

[Lioness]

The Raksha made a major invasion of Creation very soon after the Primordial War, seeing Creation weakened without its former defenders at the helm. The combined, united Exalted host beat them back, and eventually the Solars extracted Oaths from the Raksha never to attack Creation again. Those Oaths, which prevented further invasions for the rest of the First Age, were only valid as long as the Solar Deliberative ruled Creation.

Then a free Primordial attacked Creation, and again the Exalted worked together to hold him back. He was only finally defeated by Solars wielding the Sword of Creation. And the Exalted knew there was at least one other hostile Primordial still out there.

There's a lot of setting creep here that didn't exist when the Great Prophecy was first established as part of the lore. I expect if we'd kept the focus on the distant past we'd probably have at least picked up some proto-Deathlords.

[AnubisXy]

While I don't have a link available, Holden said years ago in another discussion about Sidereal and the Great Prophecy, that the Blind Seers sidebar in First Edition was one of the more disempowering segments of the Exalted gameline and hinted that people shouldn't assume that the Great Prophecy (or the Sidereal Exalted) will work like that in 3rd edition.

[Meianno Yuurei]

While I don't have a link available, Holden said years ago in another discussion about Sidereal and the Great Prophecy, that the Blind Seers sidebar in First Edition was one of the more disempowering segments of the Exalted gameline and hinted that people shouldn't assume that the Great Prophecy (or the Sidereal Exalted) will work like that in 3rd edition.

And this is great. The "LOL THEY DIDN'T SEE LOLOLOLLOOOOL ROFLMAO" got spammed SO hard, SO frequently in 2e, that Sidereals were more defined by their consistent, endless FAILURE to see and predict things than any actual visionary talent. That button got pounded basically every opportunity that arose to laugh at Sidereals.

I feel that the Vision of Bronze vs Vision of Gold needs to actually be "99% surety of NOT destroying all Creation, after the unknown factors, in exchange for lessening it, to survive another Age" versus "Well, it's a huge gamble, big risk, unlikely odds, uncomfortably likely to fail, one in a few thousand chance of success, but if we win, we win BIG and the world is saved for perpetuity and we're the big damn heroes for doing it".

Not this "100% vs 99%".or "99% vs 98.999%", "the Vision of Gold was totally something that rational intelligent people would think was adequately likely to succeed, but the Bronze was just a LIIIIIITTLE SMIIIIIIIIDGE more likely so the Sidereals CHUMPED OUT like COWARDS". In order for it to be "a grim necessity, undertaken" and not "cowardly spineless simpering" the Vision of Gold needs to be adequately unlikely to succeed that the idea of pushing this button and probably ending the world is more the act of a madman than a bold impetuous and just move.

Unless your goal is "the Bronze plan was objectively and completely wrong in every way", there had to be serious, significant risks to the Gold plan, and a near-absolute guarantee of safety to Bronze even after all dangers factored in. It can't be "I roll a d20. The Bronze plan fails on a 1 and the Gold plan fails on a 1-2.", without going for "everything sucks forever but at least we all live, 95% guaranteed" being criminally negligent compared to "Everything is grand and glorious forever, 90% guaranteed".

The only "gain" I see from playing down the dangers of the Vision of Gold is making the Sidereals look less competent as sages and prophets, sabotaging their thesis.... and for what? How is making them look less competent a good thing?

[wonderandawe]

Wasn't there some write up online where the vision of Gold lead to Solars mentally dominating Creation. They were the mad blood thirsty gods who did horrible things and you thanked them for it.

I think Jena Moran wrote it up?

[Totentanz]

Something I have been wondering about for a long time is just how freshly-Exalted Solars deal with the memories inherited with their exaltation.

From what I understand, part of the package of Exaltation is that you also receive some memories from your "past lives". This is how you can justify starting out with several Charms right out of chargen, but what about the actual RP-ing aspect of this? Does it just never come up in your games?

I mean, sure, everyone would handle things a little bit differently, but most likely the most common "last memory" of newly Exalted Solars is that of being hunted down and executed. No near-death experiences, narrow escapes, saves or such.

For all intents and purposes, you died. Violently. Via people you probably trusted.

How would that actually cause the character to react. From what I have seen in the books, it never comes up at all.

Answering this question authoritatively will only remove agency from the PCs and reduce choice for the players. If I declare that Solars experience their betrayal and death from their past lives, then I'm setting them all up for what amounts to revenge fantasy or potential mental illness. I'm telling each and every Solar player that their character is a victim right out of the gate. That's a bad call for an empowerment fantasy.

If, on the other hand, I declare that Solars aren't affected by their memories in such a fashion, then I'm removing potential interesting sub-plots for PCs. Maybe one of my players really wanted to have these traumatic dreams of being murdered by a Sidereal, find that Sid in the present day, and get revenge.

Solars are also intended to be the blank-slate Exalts. I'm also not a dick ST who writes my players' characters. Given all of the above, I conclude that individual Solars are affected by their past lives as determined by the Solars' player, no more and no less.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'd say sometimes a little less is acceptable, if the player's indulged in some of the more toxic memes brewed by the fandom. It's less "writing your player's character," and more "keeping a guiding hand on the portrayal of the setting."

(Don't get me wrong, a character being essentially overwritten by his past existence can be a fun story to explore, but if someone brings that to me as his or her first character in the setting, I'm most likely gonna explain why that's atypical and try and work with them to produce something that fits a little better, or at least justify why they're different.)

[Marcob]

On the Gold Faction, I don't trust them. I am almost certain that they're pulling a Sun Li(from Jade Empire) stratagem. Let the Solars do the work of fixing the world, then backstabbing them in a specially prepared/inflicted weakness.

[Meianno Yuurei]

On the Gold Faction, I don't trust them. I am almost certain that they're pulling a Sun Li(from Jade Empire) stratagem. Let the Solars do the work of fixing the world, then backstabbing them in a specially prepared/inflicted weakness.

That's a possibility from your ST. There's also the possibility that they're honest in their desire to harness the power of the Solars, while keeping them from getting out of control and making baby-press pipe organs ["the trick is replacing the babies with the right size to produce the right note after they grow too old or die from being pressed into screaming"] or whatever other insanity they decide hey, this sounds like fun, let's do it. Or just having epic duels that destroy swaths of landscape and leave the land incapable of supporting life for centuries. You know, the sorts of shenanigans bored people with too much power get up to.

So I would caution against blind distrust as surely as I would blind trust, basically. "Trust, but verify".