Mental Stability of newly Exalted Solars?

[Ghosthead]

Right, you're slicing that mighty thin.

Saying the Great Curse is the reason the Sids went Bronze is bad.
Saying the Great Curse is the reason the Solars went bad is good.

I think it's bad if taken as a strong reason, if it's functionally as a bait and switch from what we know about the Usurpation, and bad with the Sidereal Curse in its current form (hubris).

It wouldn't be so bad if all we knew from the very start of the game was "The Curse ate away at the hearts of the Exalted, leading them to passions, folly and war, and the Solars, the greatest, were ultimately the most diminished, and cast asunder". That would be "Unity of presentation".

If the Great Prophecy had never been set up as a resonant choice, and the Usurpation never as a struggle against tyranny. (I'd probably be like 75% okay with that as an alternative thing.)

But if we're in the position of the setting is taking the choice of the Great Prophecy as a choice between a more glorious or a safer world seriously, then yes, it is bad to undermine that by bait and switch making the choice of the Paths of Bronze and Golds due to the Great Curse. Even if "unity of presentation".

[Lioness]

The thing is, despite their similar phrasing these two concepts are actually very different beasts.

Following the prophecy of bronze was one very specific decision. That's not how the Great Curse works. It didn't deliberately steer the solars to particular atrocities, it just sent them mad and let them express that madness however they wished. It's a state of being, not a driving force.

This.
One thing DotFA did really right was the Hierophant's relationship with the Great Curse Heart of Tears didn't make him commit atrocities but he recognised that other people suffering made him depressed so he stopped putting himself in situations where he was likely to encounter it and thus becomes blind to the atrocities of his peers.

[wonderandawe]

I wonder if there is a way to use Arcane Fate/Broken Mask to take the spotlight off the Great Curse's part in the Usurpation.

All the Sidereals who survived the Usurpation wake up in the Loom of Fate with no recollection of what has happened over the past year. They go about their day and realize two things: one, the Dragonblooded overthrew the Solars and two, no one remembers anything about who they are and what Sidereals are. The Sidereals look up in the sky and see the remains of the Broken Mask and figure they did something. While the Sidereals and rest of the Bureau of Destiny know who they are, no one can account for the Sidereals activities over the past year. After years of divine audits and hearings, the only charge the courts can make stick is "Destroying Evidence."

The Assumption is that Sidereals decided to get involved in the Usurpation (not sure if they recruited the Dragonblooded or the Dragonblooded recruited them). To cover up their involvement, they casts some major Astrology that went bad and left them with Arcane Fate. If a Great Prophecy was cast, no one remembers.

[Elfive]

Saying the Great Curse is the reason the Sids went Bronze is bad.
Saying the Great Curse is the reason the Solars went bad is good.

The thing is, despite their similar phrasing these two concepts are actually very different beasts.

Following the prophecy of bronze was one very specific decision. That's not how the Great Curse works. It didn't deliberately steer the solars to particular atrocities, it just sent them mad and let them express that madness however they wished. It's a state of being, not a driving force.

[AnubisXy]

Again, it's the difference in presentation, between keeping something as a background detail and instead choosing to shine a spotlight on it.

"The Solars went crazy and did things." Okay, what kind of things? Who knows. They don't really matter during the 2nd Age and the actual details of what the Solars did are kind of irrelevant at this point in time. All that matters is that the Great Curse was insidious and subtly pushing the Solars to become BBEGs who threatened to destroy the world. And it's important to remember that the Solars weren't necessarily BBEG's at that time. Just that the Prophecy showed that they all would become BBEGs in the future, and destroy Creation unless they were "dealt with."

In contrast, the Sidereal Exalted's decision to choose the Bronze Vision over the Gold Vision is incredibly important to the current setting of the gameline (it's a major plot point for Sidereal PC's), and for the game to say that decision was the result of the Great Curse puts the Great Curse in the spotlight on the Great Curse way that's bad for the game.

This isn't only true of the Great Curse but many other facets of the game as well. Some things are okay if they're left in the background and not really explored very much. It's fine to make a note that mortals in Malfeas face terrible abuse at the hands of demons there, and perhaps make dry listing of some of the terrible fates that await them. But it's completely different when the gameline begins giving that specific focus, detailing at length the abuses that a specific human in Malfeas (Lilun) faces.

Essentially, the Great Curse as a background detail and character flaw is acceptable, and it's acceptable as a vague excuse for why "sometimes bad stuff happened," but the moment the gameline begins using it as a "cause and effect" reason for why specific events unfolded in the way that they did, that's where it's an issue and being used in a hamfisted manner - especially for something like the Gold vs Bronze prophecy, which is supposed to have some feeling of nuance.

[Totentanz]

Again, from a setting perspective there's a vast difference between the idea that the Solars suffered from a terrible and insidious curse that slowly made them mad and, if left unchecked, would have caused them to eventually threaten the existence of Creation, and the game stating that the Great Curse is why the Sidereal Exalted chose the Bronze Vision rather than the Gold Vision.

The Great Curse as a dark idea that stays in the background as an ominous effect that occasionally causes problems in undefined ways is great. But when the game begins specifically drawing cause and effect relationships between the Great Curse and specific events it's a failure.

Imagine if the gameline said something like, "The Tepet Legion's attack against the Bull failed because the Great Curse caused the Dragon Blooded to be overconfident." That would be bullshit. There are lots of good reasons for why the Tepet Legion's attack on the Bull might have failed, but attributing the failure to the Great Curse would be putting too much emphasis on it in a way that is bad for the game.

Basically there are good ways and bad ways to use the Great Curse, but when the gameline uses it as the specific cause for specific events, that is incredibly hamfisted and very bad.

Right, you're slicing that mighty thin.

Saying the Great Curse is the reason the Sids went Bronze is bad.
Saying the Great Curse is the reason the Solars went bad is good.

Both of the above involve choices. Both of the above involve fateful decisions with irreparable consequences for Creation. The Solars weren't going mad. They were already Jared Leto in make-up, and their war was going to end the world as everyone knew it. The Curse isn't some implied cause, here. The Solars going nuts is Exhibit A for the power and danger of the Curse in the first place. So, essentially, you want a world where the Curse grabs the steering wheel long enough to drive the Solars off the cliff, then sits back and chills.

Which I suppose is fine. The game can't exist without the Usurpation, and the devs have been worshipping at the altar of the Curse, so it's gotta be in there. Just don't pretend there's unity of presentation, here. The Curse is Deus Ex Machina, and the curtain is pretty thin.

[wonderandawe]

I think you're talking about this?

Yes. That.

I consider the end of the Solar First Age a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation".

[AnubisXy]

Rereading Jena's old comments. I sure do miss her.

On what would happen if the Sidereals made everyone's life boring

rebeccaborgstrom - 11/03/2003 18:56:58

I suspect that the shards would still find people to Exalt, even if everyone's life was entirely banal. The stories would be less exciting, though.
**
"So I was a little short on cash, and couldn't afford to have ice cream with my meal."
"That's horrible, Jane."
"I know. But I just set my chin and said, 'Well, if I can't have ice cream, I'll just have to carry on with the roast beef sandwich.'"
"Wow."
"But then the same thing happened *again* the next day!"
"You poor thing."
"So I set my jaw again, and said, 'Maybe I don't *need* ice cream.' Even though my stomach was rumbling and my sweet tooth was aching!"
"You are SO STRONG."
"Then the ice cream vendor looked up, and his eyes were full of moonlight. 'Jane Fitzsimmons,' he said, 'who labors to endure, in the face of such terrible hardship; I name you as my Chosen. And your totem shall be the great caribou, strength of the north.'"
"What did you do?"
"I said, 'Okay, but can I have some ice cream?' And he said, 'all the ice cream in the world is yours; you have only to seize it.'"
"Wow."
"So I said, 'including this frozen Snickers ice cream bar?' And he nodded. So I took it. This Exaltation is, like, the best thing ever."
"Wow! He just let you take it?"
"It was like, nobody can stop me now!"

I think that's still my favorite thing anyone has ever posted on the Exalted forums.

[Mockery]

Wasn't there some write up online where the vision of Gold lead to Solars mentally dominating Creation. They were the mad blood thirsty gods who did horrible things and you thanked them for it.

I think Jena Moran wrote it up?

I think you're talking about this?

[AnubisXy]

If the Curse isn't allowed in the driver's seat, who drove a busload of Solars off the bridge and into Lake Cray-Cray during the First Age?

Again, from a setting perspective there's a vast difference between the idea that the Solars suffered from a terrible and insidious curse that slowly made them mad and, if left unchecked, would have caused them to eventually threaten the existence of Creation, and the game stating that the Great Curse is why the Sidereal Exalted chose the Bronze Vision rather than the Gold Vision.

The Great Curse as a dark idea that stays in the background as an ominous effect that occasionally causes problems in undefined ways is great. But when the game begins specifically drawing cause and effect relationships between the Great Curse and specific events it's a failure.

Imagine if the gameline said something like, "The Tepet Legion's attack against the Bull failed because the Great Curse caused the Dragon Blooded to be overconfident." That would be bullshit. There are lots of good reasons for why the Tepet Legion's attack on the Bull might have failed, but attributing the failure to the Great Curse would be putting too much emphasis on it in a way that is bad for the game.

Basically there are good ways and bad ways to use the Great Curse, but when the gameline uses it as the specific cause for specific events, that is incredibly hamfisted and very bad.

[Boston123]

If the Curse isn't allowed in the driver's seat, who drove a busload of Solars off the bridge and into Lake Cray-Cray during the First Age?

This is how I ran my (admittedly singular) Exalted game. Probably the single quote that has stuck with me the entire time I have played Exalted is this:

" And this, my friends, is what happens to Elder Solar Exalted.

The corruption of the Great Curse, the soul-rot that consumes all of them. The strongest, the brightest, the best and the noblest of them, it matters not. You live long enough, you turn from an exemplar of glorious perfection to one who perfectly embodies virtue corrupted.

Conviction becomes careless cruelty and a cavalier attitude to ever-increasing amounts of collateral damage.
Valor becomes sneering contempt at reason.
Temperance teeters back and forth between mortification of the flesh, one's own and those of others, for failing to adhere to impossible standards, and to the wildest excesses a thousand screaming souls sing of in their unending nightmares.
Compassion devolves into brutal micromanagement of lives, no matter what these objects - objects! - of affection want, because you know better.

And then you add Limit Breaks, which exaggerate all these titanic flaws to levels previously unseen, unheard and unimagined, for centuries upon centuries.

There is no escape from this fate, for so rot-blighted are these ancient souls that not even death can end their evil. There is only the time your Exaltation gives you before the Great Curse consumes you, and in that time, you can be the hero you were meant to be.

Just pray that you die long before one of your younger cousins stands before you, raging at you, casting words of fiery damnation at you for in your heart you will know that you have become the very monster your kind was made to fight. "


In my games, all of the Exalted steadily go insane. Not even through the actions of the Great Curse, but also through sheer separation from humanity. The best part was when the players went along with it, without truly realizing what was happening. They were so sure of their moral superiority, because they were Exalted, and they were fighting The Realm, how could they be wrong? It got to the point where every spear not aimed at the Realm was one aimed at them, every voice not raised in support was one grumbling in rebellion. Any village that didn't outright support them immediately was purged, because a lack of outright support indicated a lack of moral fibre, one that could be exploited by the Realm.

The best part was: I didn't have to do all that much. They didn't even have all that many Limit Breaks. The descent into insanity was all them, them being so sure that what they were doing was right, that they would sacrifice as many mortal lives as they needed in order to win. I had one player actually say to me," The mortals live short, shitty lives, right? Why do they care how they die, they are just going to reincarnate anyways. Stopping the Realm is more important."

That was my Great Curse. When I laid it out for them at the end of the campaign, they had one of these moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

[Totentanz]

Having the Great Curse in the background is fine. Having it as an actor driving the events of a splat is not.

If the Curse isn't allowed in the driver's seat, who drove a busload of Solars off the bridge and into Lake Cray-Cray during the First Age?

=====
Frankly, the endless mewling about the Curse as regards the Prophecy and the Usurpation on these forums is one reason I cut the Curse entirely. Exalted to me is all shades of gray. It's tiresome and pointless to dissect where the Bronze Faction is just making a judgment call and where they are Cursed into hubris. The Solars of the First Age were a danger to Creation, but they might have been its salvation as well.

I'm getting to the end of my story with my noobs. I started with five sheltered Realm Patricians, sent them into the Threshold, and thrashed them. I beat them over the head with the oppression and humiliation heaped on the satrapies. Then, I slowly peeled back the layers of deceit in the Immaculate Order. One PC (not one of the noobs) started with a defining Intimacy of belief in the Immaculate Texts, and ended up stabbing a Dynast in the back while she fought off a Lunar Anathema.

Then they went home to their Tepet boss, and he laid it out for them. The Immaculate Order is a tool. They didn't need to believe, they just need to understand the utility. The simple truth is if the Lunars win, the PCs and all their friends and family will die. There's a war, and they are one side, and the "Anathema" are on the other. Any horrors they have seen in the Threshold keep the Realm in power, and they are no worse and no better than similar horrors perpetrated by the Lunars, or the Bull of the North.

The look on their faces when they understood it comes down to who dies and who lives was priceless. And that's Exalted. No Curse required.

[The Hug Ninja]

I think Flawed Fate was a small step up from the Sidereals having no limit break because a lot of players and writers didn't know how to be subtle with hubris and it frequently ended up feeling like they were in constant limit break.

[Meianno Yuurei]

I will say that at least in 2e the Flawed Fates did not necessarily advocate UNWISE decisions. It drove the Sidereals to excesses of their Maidens' purviews.

A Battles who limit breaks while guiding Romeo and Juliet forgets all about the whole 'doomed romance that makes the heads see their folly' thing and turns the cold war-style feud into outright war in the streets between the families of Montague and Capulet, which is SO INCREDIBLY BLOODY that both sides grow utterly sick of it and abandon the feud, burying the hatchet.

She accomplishes her goal (end the feud), but does it in a Mars-y way that might not be the best way (after all, the families are decimated, as opposed to just two idiot teenagers offing themselves), but isn't 'pants-on-head-stupid'. Just, she can't NOT see red, so to speak. In this light...

[85% of the Sidereals] *limit break simultaneously apparently if the Great Curse is what drove the Usurpation*
[Journeys] If the world might end, all journeys and beginnings and everything would never happen. That's not good. *chooses the sure bet*
[Serenity] If the world might end, all happiness and births and everything would never happen. That's not good. *chooses the sure bet*
[Battles] If the world might end, all conflicts and struggles and strifes everything would never happen. That's not good. *chooses the sure bet*
[Secrets] If the world might end, nothing would ever again be learned or concealed or understood. That's not good. *chooses the sure bet*
[Endings] If the world might end, everything would end.... but then nothing would ever end again. That's not good. *chooses the sure bet*
[15% of the Sidereals] So, do we want to try the uncertain long shot?
[85%] No. Sure bet it is.

[Ghosthead]

I'll have a punt again and maybe more broadly than having an impact on the Sidereals alone, rhetorically, I do feel there's a bit of a difference between

"You are the greatest, but cursed to extreme emotion and pride, and you were eventually overthrown as this led you to increasing injustices" against

"You were cursed to think that you were able to make a competent decision about who should be in power over you, and so made a rebellion that was incompetent in conception and ruinous for everyone". Which leaning a lot on the Sidereal Great Curse, as it stands, for the Usurpation maybe can get close to.

The second of these strikes more against what I think is maybe one of the important Exalted setting things (if we're still allowed to be this pretentious in the current age of Exalted fandom ) where the setting is a bit pro or at least neutral to people judging their rulers and them being willing to tear them down if it means their own wellbeing and freedom over their destiny. Generally, players as Solars looking at the structure of the Age of Sorrows as it stands and rejecting it.

Maybe like for a comparison if you shifted conflict of the returned Solars with the Realm into "Well, they could make peace, and solve things without any death, destruction and revolution, without any tradeoffs, but they can't because of the Great Curse will stop them making that decision". It could seem a bit like undermining the idea of thinking about why people really take revolutionary and violent political activity against the powers that be.