Does the public know what Scions are?

[Mateus Luz]

Exactly, Legend is not Fame, Legend can be much more subtle. Your deeds can be great, you become a legend, even if they don’t know you are the one that did that, so you don’t get the fame.

Imagine something like Batman, nobody see him, but when they see him first time they already know about him, because they know a guy that knows a guy that watched a guy dresses in black kick 5 bad guys asses at once.

Modern media make it even easier, things that were recorded can be edited and, while people saw a video in YouTube of a guy stoping a moving car with his hands, most people don’t believe (can be edited) and the ones who believe still don’t know who the guy is.

Urban Legend and Conspiracy theories is the key for “hidden gods“.

[Ravian]

Exactly, Legend is not Fame, Legend can be much more subtle. Your deeds can be great, you become a legend, even if they don’t know you are the one that did that, so you don’t get the fame.

Imagine something like Batman, nobody see him, but when they see him first time they already know about him, because they know a guy that knows a guy that watched a guy dresses in black kick 5 bad guys asses at once.

Modern media make it even easier, things that were recorded can be edited and, while people saw a video in YouTube of a guy stoping a moving car with his hands, most people don’t believe (can be edited) and the ones who believe still don’t know who the guy is.

Urban Legend and Conspiracy theories is the key for “hidden gods“.

I think we're operating on different definitions on what a "hidden god" is then. Because like even in his most mysterious comics, people still know batman. They may have warped ideas about him, more rumors than facts. But he's still a known entity, there is not a Batman masquerade where Batman goes out of his way to erase evidence of his passing like one would assume there would be in most World of Darkness games and what seemed to be the state of things in 1e Scion. Heck even the authorities acknowledge batman exists, even if they may publicly deny it. Batman's existence is certainly a far cry from American Gods.

[Penguinbowler]

Why so? In Changeling the Lost your powerstat is called the Wyrd - which is also translation of term Legend. In CtL you do not need to 'be more famous' for the stat to rise. You only need to be more 'mythical'. Being 'mythical'=/= famous.

Doing Deeds do not must mean gaining fame - only that you are reflecting Myths more with your actions. You do not need to kill Hydra in the center of NYC Times Square - you only need to kill Hydra. Like, in the deep underground or sewers is completly viable way to recreate Myths.

EDIT: Mateus Luz made great sum-up how to run 'Gods in Hiding' scenario -

Ok I don't think this is how Wyrd works. Wyrd is more the underlining deals that make reality function, it's a cosmic force. The more you have the more you act like the true fae, beings of stories who are incapable of understanding anything's value outside of how it plays a role to them. You can't Gain Wyrd just by acting a certain way either, you need Glamour to fuel it when you cast magic, which is harvested from powerful emotions, and you increase your wyrd just by using experiance points like everything else. It connects you to Arcadia and beings of Stories, but until you reach dangerously high levels of it, and dangerously low levels of clarity, it can't make you imiatate a story.

[Bob the Skull]

As a default, the answer is yes, most mortals in The World are at least aware to some degree about the presence of divine forces. Though exactly how much impact this actually has on their day to day lives can vary quite a bit, apparently.

In addition, the recently released Mysteries of The World Scion Companion book includes a section on adjusting parts of the setting "up" or "down" as you see fit and how that impacts the game. One of the "dials" is Evidence, concerning just how overt of a presence Heroes, Gods and the like have in The World, which can range from total secrecy to global celebrity levels.

Public knowledge is a dial I want to turn down, but I still figure there are enough data-gatherers in my World to have at least some distorted idea about the existence of Gods and Scions. Naturally, different information brokers with different agendas would see the information through a variety of lenses.

[No One of Consequence]

Public knowledge is a dial I want to turn down, but I still figure there are enough data-gatherers in my World to have at least some distorted idea about the existence of Gods and Scions. Naturally, different information brokers with different agendas would see the information through a variety of lenses.

You can certainly do that. The fun thing about the Dials is that they make the setting vastly customizeable. Four dials with five settings each is 20 options, but one of those dials covers how many Pantheons you want to use, which means 13 different variations of that Dial at Iron (the lowest) - 14 if you include the Atlanteans - plus the later ones from DemiGod and eventually God. And that only multiplies if you nudge it up to having just some combination of two or three. You can easily run something akin to early seasons of Supernatural (Origin level characters hunting active Titanspawn of multiple pantheons with very low Evidence). Likewise Percy Jackson (Heroic characters with moderate Evidence but a single pantheon), Celestial Matters (alt history adventure with two very blatant mystic cosmologies competing with each other and no real Titan activity ), or What if Joseph Campbell and Jack Kirby Collaborated on the Most Over the Top Story They Could Think Of and It Was Turned Into an Anime (everything cranked up to 11).

[Kyman201]

What I understand from this discussion is that Gods NEED worshipers, otherwise they are forgotten and loose their Legend... If that's the point, American Gods is just an step ahead, as you don't need only to remember them, but also need to dedicate thoughts and prayers to them.

Uh, no? For the most part Gods don't need Worshippers to gain Legend. They need to be known.

Like, I'll take a stab in the dark here and assume you don't worship Thor. You probably don't pray to him, you probably don't invoke his name.

But you know who he is. You know roughly what he does, what he's famous for, what his deeds are. If someone asked you "Hey tell me what Thor is all about" you could go "Well he's loud, brash, strong as anything, has a smashy hammer, kills giants-"

THAT is what Legend represents. And if, hypothetically, nobody knew who Thor was, Thor could still show them who he is. Maybe he'd be reset to Legend 1 due to nobody knowing who he is, but he can rebuild it.

[Mateus Luz]

Got your point and agree, worshipers is too much, it’s more about people that can recognized him and his legend.

A completely hidden god would lost legend eventually for being forgotten any way, like (probably) got the gods of pre-historical people, and would need to re incarnate to build a new legend.

Let’s say you have a hammer wielder that kills giants, if someone start to calling him Thorson as a reference to Thor, and he becomes a local legend for killing a few monsters, but never showed his face. He is not recognized when walking around, so he is not famous, but he is legendary. If he was never recorded, hardly anyone would have seen him out of the town he saved, so he becomes know everywhere, his legend is increasing, even if most people that know his legend don’t know he is real at all (like we do for Thor, we know his legend but no body think he was a real person someday).

Thats what I mean by urban legends and conspiracy theories.

[Kyman201]

I guess the reason i'm so confused by an insistence on a Masquerade is that I don't see anything it adds to the game. Because once your players become Divine, the moment of "There's a world you never knew was real" can only really happen once and then from that point on you're one of the ones on the inside, and the public reaction is "What how can you shoot lightning?" which gets old, fast.

It's ultimately boring and is especially bad when the whole point of Scion is that you are a Hero and you're building a Legend. While the divine is Hush Hush don't let it out in the open.

Huh?

Like, you're throwing cars and invoking blessings to end droughts. That shit is gonna get out. And I don't buy the comments of "But then history would have gone entirely differently" or "It's easier to relate to a world where it's hidden", because you may as well say "Superhero comics are dumb. If there were people with superpowers back before world war 2 then the modern world would look completely different"

Yes, we know, and maybe it's fun to imagine an alternate world where things went off the rails, but then it wouldn't look Very Much Like Our World so we're all agreeing to just accept that it does. I mean, fuck, if you think about it, a WoD style "We pretend we don't exist" Masquerade wouldn't endure either because all you need is one jackass to circulate things.

The only reason the absurdities of the Masquerade aren't called out is because people are used to just accepting it in their Urban Fantasies.

In addition, as of late I don't like the Implications that can be read into 1e's Masquerade chapter. Like, they're telling people who still worship these Gods "Your God pretends they don't exist in spite of people believing in them" which isn't a great look, with the additional layer of "Also in real life your god doesn't exist. The only way we can parse them existing but the world being the same is if they gods pretend they don't exist"

To the faithful in our actual world right now, these gods exist. Saying to them, however accidentally, that "The only way our world would look at all the same is if you're wrong and the Gods pretend they don't exist and ignore you" feels to me like spitting in their face.

[Mateus Luz]

I honestly don't think there is point in masquerade, but we can play with low activity of the gods on Earth.

Our World is full of miracles if you look through the eyes of the correct people, and I want to keep it in my game, the sense of greatness of Heroes and Demigods, not even to mention Gods. But at same time I want people to be able to not follow any dogma, to be atheists, to have a life without fear of being hit by a thunderbolt for calling a girl as beautiful as Aphrodite.

My world don't has that many active Heroes (maybe a few thousands among all gods) and the number of Demigods is no more than a few dozens at time, with virtually none except very few achieving apotheosis every millennia. People believe in gods, and people can see the marvels happening, but there are not enough Heroes to make it a popular thing. Heroes are not trying to hide, they are trying to do their stuff, Donnie probably have thousands of followers in Instagram, but they don't work as a cult around him, not at least the thousands, maybe a few of them (the followers and cult birthrights), and he may go to TV and give some interviews on how he have killed the minotaur with his friends, but its not going to be the most serious thing happening and most people will call it bs.

It's not like Novas capable of marvels all the time and facing one another in great battles. Heroes are powerful but they are not even near Novas, they do some amazing things, probably the world records are higher than in our world (100m in 6 seconds, deadlift of over a ton and marathons under 30 minutes, but "they have the genetics"). Other purviews have their own explanations, usually related to magic, that is basically a thing that so few people can do (not all heroes) that it can be treated as tricks most of time.

The monsters are not that many, they are usually on wild places, as few would be capable of crawling all the way to Times Square without being notice and attacked before, just like its hard for a bear or a pack of wolves to do the same, even if they intended to do it. Well, that crocodile in the swage may be a monster, and there are lots of smaller creatures around (goblins and trolls), but they are afraid of people because people are too many and have tools for everything. The big boys are in Terra Incognita, where they could have a life out of a zoo or without being killed by the army or whatever, like the big foot and Mokolé Membé do, its a matter of survival.

The titans are locked or waiting or not very aggressive/powerful, otherwise the gods would face them long ago (gods are weapons of mass destruction, if you use its to end wars, if the other side have them too, you can't use otherwise the shit hits the fan, and the gods know that). They may do some things, every year the titans of the Atlantic Ocean send hurricanes against southern US, trying to hit as north as possible just to the gods to resist the attack and send it to Florida (a well known place where weird is the rule).

Thats basically the Heroes part of my Heroes are Urban Legend world. I am expanding on this on every post... maybe I make a book on that...

[Astromancer]

Maybe when doing a secret gods Campaign "Legend" could be called "Arete". The word simply means excellence though achievement. It doesn't change much, but it ends the argument. If you want it to.

[Kyman201]

And like I'm perfectly fine with Heroes not being COMMON. I just prefer the reaction to the PC's pulling out a shining sword from the onlookers being "HOLY SHIT it's a HERO" instead "What the fuck is this are they shooting a movie?"

[Purple Snit]

Yes, my point was exactly that - if you aren't known, you don't get Legend. It isn't worship, it's your name being associated with your deeds. If you just want to play "powers and deeds but no-one knows we are here", you could play any superhero game and just say "secret Gods sponsor them and grant powers." Why play a game about Gods and Goddesses and then downplay them? Again, if that's what you like, fill your boots - I just don't understand what it does to make Scion better.

[Maitrecorbo]

Its the opposite
You are known because you have Legend.

You get Legend by accomplishing Deeds.

Here is the order stuff happens
Deeds -> Legend -> wikipedia page about you.

Less people knowing about you wont diminish your legend.
Legend diminishing first (tho there currently exist no mechanics for that) would lead to less people knowing about the scion.

In The World of Scion we could posit that Divinities that became forgotten lost their Legend first and then that caused them to be forgotten.

[Purple Snit]

So Legend is just another way of saying "fame"? How do great deeds help if no-one knows about it? If a hero catches a falling tree in a forest and there is no-one to hear him yell "woo-hoo!", how does that count? You roll a boulder into a river and dam it, saving an entire campground of kids who get to evacuate ahead of the flood, but there are no witnesses to your deed, and no-one believes a rando who says, "I did that, you know." How does that boost Legend? You can gain fame and fortune for doing little more than self-promotion in the real world - do the Kardashians have Legend? You need both together; great deeds, with witnesses to tell of them, to get anywhere as a Hero. The Myths themselves tell us that.

[Kyman201]

I think that a passage in the Hero book mentions that lots of Facebook followers doesn't get you Legend. Higher Legend gets you lots of Facebook followers.

And I personally run it that in a lot of cases, Fate will... HELP ensure witnesses. And even in some cases, well...

Imagine, if you will, you're in a small town. Every month, the aos sidhe arrive and steal children away into the night. Then a group of strangers walk into town, ask some questions, and go "Right" and then walk away from the town.

And then the kids return the next day, and no children ever go missing again. Even if nobody in the town was there to witness what exactly happened, people aren't dumb. They can put one and one together to get Legend Two.