Does the public know what Scions are?

[No One of Consequence]

I've occasionally considered the idea that the Christian God and the various angelic beings which emanate from Him simply consider all other gods to be irrelevant to His divine plan, to the point where said angelic beings are unable to recognize or interact with those gods or anything to do with them, including their followers and Scions. The theology of the faith itself excises it from the game's setting. At least this is one concept that's occurred to me.

[Ravian]

As you touched the gods and their relationship with the Abrahamic religions.

I have a “theory”, as Christianism got more and more popular in Rome, the same way the Pontifex Maximus become the Pope (Pontifex Maximus, still), Jupiter takes the mantle of Jehovah, changing the way people see god, from a natural manifestation (light in the sky, bush on fire, etc) to the huge man with a long beard in the sky, getting free of the rest of the Theoi and becoming the one and most powerful god.

What he didn’t expected was that later, Jesus, son of the mantle he stole, and so, weirdly, “his son”, take the Mantle from him when becomes the Holy Trinity and so the one and only god, fulfilling the prophecy foretold when Zeus took the power from his father.

I'm not super sure that Zeus would specifically do that. After all, Kinship is a Theoi virtue, and Zeus disowning his family like that to go be a Monotheistic God in a Power-grab seems unlike him.

Sol Invictus might try to pull that off though, and indeed in Titanomachy they imply that he was actually a new mantle of Aten that tried for another Monotheism play in Rome. I'm not super into that specific take, but it makes more sense than Zeus doing it.

Granted if Aten was behind it it would be weird that he made Jehovah be depicted as human, since originally one of the primary features of Aten's cult was the fact that he was specifically not shown in a human incarnation, only as the literal Sun Disk, in an almost Iconoclastic fashion.

[Mateus Luz]

As you touched the gods and their relationship with the Abrahamic religions.

I have a “theory”, as Christianism got more and more popular in Rome, the same way the Pontifex Maximus become the Pope (Pontifex Maximus, still), Jupiter takes the mantle of Jehovah, changing the way people see god, from a natural manifestation (light in the sky, bush on fire, etc) to the huge man with a long beard in the sky, getting free of the rest of the Theoi and becoming the one and most powerful god.

What he didn’t expected was that later, Jesus, son of the mantle he stole, and so, weirdly, “his son”, take the Mantle from him when becomes the Holy Trinity and so the one and only god, fulfilling the prophecy foretold when Zeus took the power from his father.

[Ravian]

As magicjohnny said, yes monotheistic religions do, probably not as active as in our western world, as the Theoi would not let Romans become Christians that easy and so the church would not be as powerful (that’s the reason I use to explain why the western pantheons still have worshipers in the world).

My personal interpretation is more alt-history than direct intervention. Namely that in its early development, the sect of Christianity that grew in popularity in most of the Roman Empire specifically adapted to allow for some measure of acknowledgment of other deities, even in a strictly lesser function. This would likely incorporate some Neoplatonic elements, wherein God is considered distinctly superior but that these other deities might function somewhat akin to lesser aspects of him. Importantly however this remains an ongoing issue in Church theology, with the church(es) through history shifting on how tolerant they've been of other beings calling themselves Gods. In particular you see a lot of sects that never shifted towards this Henotheistic stance or who developed a more fundamentalist view on the subject. (One can easily imagine that some Protestant sects that formed during the Reformation might have made this a bigger point in their doctrine.)

Islam meanwhile generally remains firm on the matter of "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet" but are more permissive in acknowledging other faiths as "People of the Book" even if those faiths logically wouldn't fall under that category due to lacking the Abrahamic connection. After all, in the real world, Zoroastrians, Sikhs and Hindus have been considered People of the Book within Muslim ruled countries. Mostly because it was considered more politically advantageous to allow such groups to freely practice their faiths rather than persecute them. I could easily imagine that in the World many other pantheons commonly found in areas that are Majority-Muslim today, such as the Netjer and the Annuna, are considered People of the Book and live mostly peacefully alongside Practicing Muslims. Judaism is probably the least changed from the real world. They follow G-D and generally would only acknowledge that the gods revered by others empirically exist, even if they don't consider them to be divine. However that's a matter for Gentiles, the Jewish people have their own covenant to consider and generally don't worry about conversion or putting themselves into conflicts with these other so-called Gods.

Importantly, only the most stubbornly fundamentalist sect of any of the Abrahamic faiths can say with a straight face that the other Pantheons simply don't exist. They may call them something else, either neoplatonic emanations of the True God, or perhaps courts of Rogue Semi-divine beings like the Grigori described in Genesis of the Djinn in Islamic folklore, or perhaps powerful Sorcerers and/or non-humans (as the Aesir, the Tuatha de Danaan and other European pagan gods were commonly described by later Christian writers.)

Are these interpretations true? As true as Re being the one to carry the Sun across the sky is true. Which is to say, as far as their worshippers are concerned it might as well be. Ask the other pantheons how they feel about this interpretation and they'll likely just roll their eyes. A few, like the Tuatha and the Tengri may be willing to consider Abrahamic outlooks, some in their pantheons are even practicing Christians or Muslims. Other pantheons can acknowledge connections that have resulted in some syncretism. Many of the Deva commonly acknowledge Ishu and Kalki (Jesus and Muhammad) as Avatars similar to their own Krishna and I could easily imagine a cult where Baldr's eventual sacrifice places him in a Christ-like Status (which may secretly be being encouraged by Odin who is considering whether Baldr Syncretizing with Jesus might allow him to syncretize with God the Father and thus grant him the power to prevent Ragnarok in yet another one of his hare-brained plots that will probably end with the Aesir in a worse situation than they started in.) For most of the rest, they treat the Abrahamic faiths like they treat every other faith, which is to say, rarely. Zeus certainly doesn't acknowledge another god as being higher than him, whether that God is Jehovah or Vishnu or Amaterasu. I imagine a lot of those matters get settled more on the basis of everyone agreeing to stand on their side of the World (metaphysically speaking) rather than getting into grudge matches with one another. When gods from different pantheons do work together for whatever reason this functions more like a gentledeity's agreement to not bring up Religion (in a very literal sense) at work.

The Orishas and Annuna are members of a monotheistic religion, and the gods of those pantheons themselves are “intermediaries” to the true god, so, monotheistic religions may worship a single god or a set of intermediaries to the one true god. If you follow the core books of the Abrahamic religions, you can’t have intermediaries (that’s one of the commandments that works for all of them), so guys like Angels, Saints and even Jesus and Mohamed are not worth of worship, the best you can do is to ask them to help you in the name of their boss.

Just as a final point of clarity, most Trinitarian Christians do Worship Jesus. Because they don't view him as an intermediary but as a distinctly a part of God. Father/Son/Holy Spirit are all essentially parts of the same entity.

[Mateus Luz]

As magicjohnny said, yes monotheistic religions do, probably not as active as in our western world, as the Theoi would not let Romans become Christians that easy and so the church would not be as powerful (that’s the reason I use to explain why the western pantheons still have worshipers in the world).

The Orishas and Annuna are members of a monotheistic religion, and the gods of those pantheons themselves are “intermediaries” to the true god, so, monotheistic religions may worship a single god or a set of intermediaries to the one true god. If you follow the core books of the Abrahamic religions, you can’t have intermediaries (that’s one of the commandments that works for all of them), so guys like Angels, Saints and even Jesus and Mohamed are not worth of worship, the best you can do is to ask them to help you in the name of their boss.

You can put the one god as distant, requiring intermediaries to be reached, and all the monotheistic religions may be worshipping the same one above all, with different intermediaries (Orishas, Annuna, angels, Saints, prophets, etc). In this case, your character may be a Scion of one of those intermediaries and even if you reach the title of god, you are still an intermediary.

You can even think some religions that jump straight to the one above all with no intermediaries, but in that religions, the number of Scion is probably very limited (to 0 as I see), as the one above all will have no reason to have intermediaries.

[Magicjohnny]

Yes the Abrahamic religions exist, it’s just they took a much different view on the “no god before me” thing and worship other gods as well, with the big G being the “head” so to speak.

[Hakkonen]

OK, next question: are all the pantheons in the World still actively worshipped? And (this may be stepping into flamebait territory, and if so I apologize in advance) what about the Abrahamic... monotheon, for lack of a better term? Do Judaism, Christianity, and Islam exist?

[wyrdhamster]

Scion Demigod public preview on the official Legend trait shows more canonical information on Scions status in the World - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/2953433

[wyrdhamster]

Defintelly "HOLY SHIT it's a HERO" is the effect I want, but I also want people not believing it was real when the witness tell people. That would be a reason to form a cult around the Hero or end up fatebound to the Hero, as the witness may be following them to get a better picture or learn more.

I want their stories told by Bards not reality shows basically. It loses the mystery of it is on E! And not in History chanel (with some crazy people telling thy are Aliens).

I just want to support Mateus here - I know it's personal preference of Storyguide and a hack to the main line of Scion 2E - but his description perfectly pints to how I want the game to be run.

Deifans - if the even exists in this Gods in Hiding Scion - are publicly think as Conspiracy Theorists, chasing after some 'Urban Legend'.

P.S. I'm reposting Mateus posts to Gods in Hiding topic, cause his descriptions are great and worth to not miss in later eras of forums.

[Kyman201]

I mean what is "Check out this sick monster kill! #HeroSighting #MissionStatusAwesome" on Twitter today but the modern version of "Hwæt!"?

Incidentally I'll take this chance to plug the Maria Headley Beowulf translation which translates the opening line of Beowulf as "Bro! Tell me we still know how to speak of kings!"

[Mateus Luz]

And like I'm perfectly fine with Heroes not being COMMON. I just prefer the reaction to the PC's pulling out a shining sword from the onlookers being "HOLY SHIT it's a HERO" instead "What the fuck is this are they shooting a movie?"

Defintelly "HOLY SHIT it's a HERO" is the effect I want, but I also want people not believing it was real when the witness tell people. That would be a reason to form a cult around the Hero or end up fatebound to the Hero, as the witness may be following them to get a better picture or learn more.

I want their stories told by Bards not reality shows basically. It loses the mystery of it is on E! And not in History chanel (with some crazy people telling thy are Aliens).

[Maitrecorbo]

Someone "kill stealing" your deed by saying their the one who accomplished is 100% the kind of thing that can happen. Of course if the impersonator isnt a scion they either dont have the ... fate gravity to really make people believe their the ones of Legend. Or Fate makes sure the scion hear someone is taking credit for their Deed.

Thats just a personnal decision as a SG but id make the deed accomplishment and possible Legend up on hold until the scion ... rectify the situation

[Kyman201]

I think that a passage in the Hero book mentions that lots of Facebook followers doesn't get you Legend. Higher Legend gets you lots of Facebook followers.

And I personally run it that in a lot of cases, Fate will... HELP ensure witnesses. And even in some cases, well...

Imagine, if you will, you're in a small town. Every month, the aos sidhe arrive and steal children away into the night. Then a group of strangers walk into town, ask some questions, and go "Right" and then walk away from the town.

And then the kids return the next day, and no children ever go missing again. Even if nobody in the town was there to witness what exactly happened, people aren't dumb. They can put one and one together to get Legend Two.

[Purple Snit]

So Legend is just another way of saying "fame"? How do great deeds help if no-one knows about it? If a hero catches a falling tree in a forest and there is no-one to hear him yell "woo-hoo!", how does that count? You roll a boulder into a river and dam it, saving an entire campground of kids who get to evacuate ahead of the flood, but there are no witnesses to your deed, and no-one believes a rando who says, "I did that, you know." How does that boost Legend? You can gain fame and fortune for doing little more than self-promotion in the real world - do the Kardashians have Legend? You need both together; great deeds, with witnesses to tell of them, to get anywhere as a Hero. The Myths themselves tell us that.

[Maitrecorbo]

Its the opposite
You are known because you have Legend.

You get Legend by accomplishing Deeds.

Here is the order stuff happens
Deeds -> Legend -> wikipedia page about you.

Less people knowing about you wont diminish your legend.
Legend diminishing first (tho there currently exist no mechanics for that) would lead to less people knowing about the scion.

In The World of Scion we could posit that Divinities that became forgotten lost their Legend first and then that caused them to be forgotten.