CoD monsters in Scion

[wyrdhamster]

Notice: IF you do not like general idea of CoD beings in Scion setting – please leave this topic. We talk here about setting hack in good faith.
Notice 2: Shorts for various terminology is mentioned first time in bracket of it.

I’m an old Chronicles of Darkness ( CoD in short ) Storyteller, running it from the start of it in 2005 year. Genuinely love the setting – only got a bit tired of it in late years. I started to run the Scion as general game of my choosing, but I think about recreating CoD monsters in it as NPC organisations, to populate world with more beings and factions than only Pantheons. So here is topic about talking about setting repercussions of putting CoD monsters in Scion World. Simple. 😎

First, let’s start with how to generally recreate CoD monsters in Storypath engine mechanics. We make monsters special Paths, like pointed in Scion Origin. In each CoD gameline there are 2 Splats variants – X-Splats ( ‘inborn’/Transformation ones ) and Y-Splats ( Society/‘Philosophical’ ones ). Myself, I would simply made X-Splats as part of general Supernatural Path ( i.e. you Supernatural is not ‘werewolf’ only it’s ‘Full Moon werewolf’ ) - and Society/Pantheon Paths to be Y-Splats. ( So your vampire being member of Carthian Movement is your Society Path ). This way translating, for example, Mekhet vampire from Lancea Sanctum, he will in Scion have Supernatural Path: Mekhet vampire and Society Path: Lancea Santcum. We can also extend monster societies to other monstrous ‘lesser templates’ beings – like from ( blue line ) Antagonists, Wicked Dead, (blue line) Second Sight, etc.

[wyrdhamster]

This leads to interesting conversions in Scion World setting:

1. Vampire: the Requiem (VtR) has two religion based Covenants – Lancea Sanctum (LS) and Circle of Crone. Lancea Sanctum follows teachings and life of vampiric (anti)messiah Longinus, born of killing Christ. Circle of Crone (CoC) is worshiping Vampiric Dark Mother that is amalgation of various mother deities, especially of monsters. In Scion, CoC worshipers would need a weird across Pantheon coalition, across religion. LS interest in monotheism is based basically on influence of monotheists in thee World setting.
2. Urath, werewolves of Werewolf: the Forsaken (WtF), are half spirits – that spirits in CoD setting are like lower gods and ephemeral, ghosts like beings. In Scion, they should follow various spiritual traditions of gods from many Pantheons, connect in worshiping Wolf and Moon?
3. Diamond Orders (DO) in Mage: the Awakening ( MtAw ) follows spiritual ideal of Dragons. In the World, they could worship REAL, physical Dragons of the Scion setting. 😮 What then follows Seers of Throne (SoT) and Free Council (FC)? Seers follow Titans of Tyranny and Free Council believes simply in humanity and it’s development?

[Dataweaver]

The only one of Vampire, Werewolf, or Mage that I can speak to is Mage. But I can speak to Mage.

Unlike the other monster types from the Chronicles of Darkness, I would treat mages in a manner similar to how Scion treats Dragons and the Mythos. Regular mages would be Hero and Demigod-tier; their quest for Ascension is not unlike a demigod's quest for godhood. And archmasters and Ascended Beings are God-tier. Their “Pantheon” is the Oracles, and every mage was chosen by an Oracle: if there are any Born, Made, or Incarnate mages, they're unique to the Scion setting. The Exarchs are their equivalent of Titans, though they differ in that the Exarchs won their Titanomachy.

I can definitely see mages being on friendly terms with dragons; but it's not so much that mages worship dragons as that their Creation Myth prominently features dragons as benefactors for the first mages. (While 1e prominently features mages as the heirs of Atlantis, 2e has downplayed that aspect to the point that it no longer matters.)

[Mateus Luz]

While I never played Awakening, I had may fair cut of Ascension and must agree with Dataweaver.

As many of the CoD (if not all) Mages fight against themselves as much as they fight monsters and other beings. A Scion would never (or almost never) face a situation where they must hold their apotheosis to survive (usually it’s exactly the opposite, you must gain power as fast as possible to survive), but in the end a Mage is fighting their way to apotheosis as much as any other Scion, and would fit perfectly in Scion standards.

Now, on Vampires, I don’t think worshiping and god-like figures fit on VtR. I know you are kind of forcing it into the setting, but I would make them capable of their own way of god-like power by merely getting old.

You don’t need to gain legend of your blood gives you more and more power as long as you keep active and feeding properly. If you want to add vampires to Scion in all levels of play (I would keep them out of godhood, but...) just make vampires older and more powerful as you need. The lower end of vampire societies live as a mix of cattle and servants of the older ones, as the older need their blood to survive and need to keep their presence arrive in larger areas, and that’s how they form this religious like structures.

It would not fit the idea of player character vampires, as they would take centuries to raise in power, while a Scion do it in a much short time.

[Dataweaver]

Changelings are kind of like mages in that they were “chosen” by godlike beings, the Gentry. And similarly, every Promethean was Made (indirectly) by a Primordial known only as the Principle — or rather, by a process empowered by the Principle. The Arisen were Chosen by the Judges of Duat, who are associated with but distinct from the Netjer (to hear them tell the story, the Netjer are what the gods of Irem became after the Nameless Empire was destroyed); the Unchained are rebellious children of the Primordial known as the God-Machine; and the Begotten venerate the Dark Mother, who they credit for most of the CoD monsters. The Uratha have a “Pantheon” of sorts in Father Wolf, Luna, and the First Pack; like mages and Oracles, you can define Tribes through the First Pack.

Unlike mages, all of the others are as you describe: defined by Supernatural Paths. They are not inherently Scions (or Heirs, or whatever the Mythos equivalent is called).

[Baaldam]

This leads to interesting conversions in Scion World setting:

1. Vampire: the Requiem (VtR) has two religion based Covenants – Lancea Sanctum (LS) and Circle of Crone. Lancea Sanctum follows teachings and life of vampiric (anti)messiah Longinus, born of killing Christ. Circle of Crone (CoC) is worshiping Vampiric Dark Mother that is amalgation of various mother deities, especially of monsters. In Scion, CoC worshipers would need a weird across Pantheon coalition, across religion. LS interest in monotheism is based basically on influence of monotheists in thee World setting.

Honestly, for the CoC, i'd say their being the cult of the many aspects a cthonic earth titaness would make a better fit with their own presentation through Requiem books.

• Uratha, werewolves of Werewolf: the Forsaken (WtF), are half spirits – that spirits in CoD setting are like lower gods and ephemeral, ghosts like beings. In Scion, they should follow various spiritual traditions of gods from many Patheons, connect in worshiping Wolf and Moon?

My impression is most of them would fit well as "lesser immortals", the beings not quite mortal or divine and that tend to blur those lines and those of pantheons, called elves, nymphs, amatsukami or many other names depending on culture, history and context. The Lodges of the Uratha definitely provide cultural roots for different groups to tie up in a number of pantheons' mythos.

Same probably goes for the changelings/Lost.

• Diamond Orders (DO) in Mage: the Awakening ( MtAw ) follows spiritual ideal of Dragons. In the World, they could worship REAL, physical Dragons of the Scion setting. 😮 What then follows Seers of Throne (SoT) and Free Council (FC)? Seers follow Titans of Tyranny and Free Council believes simply in humanity and it’s development?

Can't say i agree, while dragons are mentioned, they are not a big element of their mythos like Atlantis/primordial magical society and the towers per se.



A bunch of years ago (sometime between 2015 and 2010, not sure anymore) did a discussion Hunter: the Vigil forums about Taskforce: Valkyrie's sometimes obsessive use of norse mythology in their nomenclature and as connections and the occasional hint of occult lore were brought up one thing lead to another and the topic evolved into the sketch of a campaign, the Collection of Heroes, centered in the idea of how the TF:V's "special identification circuits" were actually runes that marked hunters and how those made themselves into worthy heroes through their battles with the supernatural, to be collected upon death for Valhalla - hence the Collection of Heroes that named the chronicle.

From there things simply evolved into a "Scion:Ragnarok in nWoD" kind of saga, one that i unfortunately have no idea if any of the people involved in the discussion ever STed.

Scion were to be portrayed with the "dark heroes" from Mirrors as expies and as the deities as presented in Scion still felt all too human when compared to the sheer alien weirdness of the typical nWoD spirit, a dark hero-purified (from Immortals) combo was to be used for the gods themselves to explain that.

So, as you can guess, i heartily approve of this crossover/mashup thread. Count me in.

[wyrdhamster]

Honestly, for the CoC, i'd say their being the cult of the many aspects a cthonic earth titaness would make a better fit with their own presentation through Requiem books.

Is not Theoi Gaea semi-antagonistic Titan in Titanomachy? Sounds like a good patron for Circle of Crone then.

[Guest]

What about the Saints and Monsters book coming out soon? That’s supposed to have stuff about wizards and sorcerers for Scion.

[Baaldam]

Is not Theoi Gaea semi-antagonistic Titan in Titanomachy? Sounds like a good patron for Circle of Crone then.

Could be. Echidna, that is straight out cited in Requiem a number of times in association with the Crone, would be even better.

[Dataweaver]

What about the Saints and Monsters book coming out soon? That’s supposed to have stuff about wizards and sorcerers for Scion.

Scion also already has vampires and werewolves in it, IIRC. But that's not the point of this thread. It's not about vampires, werewolves, and mages in general; it's about Kindred, Uratha, and Awakened, the specific types of vampires, werewolves, and mages that are featured in the Chronicles of Darkness.

Frankly, I think it might be easier to go the other way around and to translate scions into the Chronicles of Darkness; but that's also not what this thread is about.

[Mateus Luz]

Frankly, I think it might be easier to go the other way around and to translate scions into the Chronicles of Darkness; but that's also not what this thread is about.

That is a lot of dice!

[wyrdhamster]

But that's not the point of this thread. It's not about vampires, werewolves, and mages in general; it's about Kindred, Uratha, and Awakened, the specific types of vampires, werewolves, and mages that are featured in the Chronicles of Darkness.

It's mainly about CoD monsters - but translting their organisations to Scion, where mythical beings are much more in numbers and open - I would argue that Non-Kindred, Non-Uratha, Non-Awakened vampires, werewolves, mages and all - could join their Y-Splats faction. So you have Tribes with Uratha werewolves, but also Non-Uratha ones, wanting to join greater werewolves 'family'(?) / organisation, not only their Pantheon.

CoD monsters splats may even be way to broke the role putted by the myths of your original Pantheon - 'You say all werewolves are only spawn of Fenris and lead to Ragnarok? We will show you that Mother Moon is adopting ANY wolf-child under her auspice. We are more than Giants of your myths.'

[wyrdhamster]

We agree here that for translating CoD monsters we need their specific Pantheons for monster Patrons in it? So Kindred vampires are guided by the Crone and Longinus as Titans, Uratha werewolves are following Pantheon of spirits (?) under Luna and Wolf. And mages follow Oracles as Pantheon - and Exarchs as Titans? Then Free Council is breaking the mold byt exalting Humans as future gods?

[Ravian]

I think one of the ideas to consider in a setting like the World where supernaturals are more well-known is how that affects the organization of various CoD monsters, many of which are very dependent on anonymity.

Kindred for instance, are very dependent on their Masquerade in the World of Darkness, and I'd argue that that actually becomes more important in the World, where people are much more willing to entertain the idea that vampires are real. Because even if Kindred can keep the details of their existence secret, people are going to be less willing to suspend their disbelief regarding the weird pale person that they only see at night. Kindred may have less weaknesses compared to your average folkloric/mythology vampire, so it's not necessarily going to be that much of an issue if people are less willing to invite them into places, or rub garlic on everything (unless they have a specific bane for those things) but a world where forensics are actually willing to consider vampires as a credible hypothesis after finding an exsanguinated corpse is a world where Vampires have to be that much more careful when hunting.

Uratha by contrast would probably appreciate being in the World more. People aren't necessarily accepting of having Werewolves as neighbors, but guardians between the boundaries between the physical and spiritual works well with the general mindset of the World, and mortals there are more likely to be convinced of spiritual threats, which makes their job easier. To me they would be about as tolerated as any other Denizen species, just with the general warning about Lunacy if you see a transformed Uratha.

Mages are probably the splat that is least affected by the change of Masquerade status in the World. Paradox might be a little more mild with what sort of miracles people are willing to accept occurring, but it's still enough of a concern to not go flaunting magic around. Beyond that it mostly depends on how Mages deal with the expanded and varied cosmology. Some may think Gods and the like are still part of the fallen world, and keep doing what they're doing. But I can certainly see some Mages speculating the links between the divine and the supernal, and there's likely a lot of Mages, particularly in the Free Council, that organize their magic based off of the principles of certain divine cosmologies.

Many of the other splats are very wrapped up in their own cosmologies, many of which still necessitate hiding themselves. Prometheans still have their pilgrimages, and while an Osiran might appreciate people being more accepting of any dying and rising God cult they start, past experiences with Torment tells them that that still will never end well. Changelings might get even more paranoid in the World, True Fae naturally coexist with folklore and myth, and a Changeling can't always easily tell if a denizen is a creature of the World or Arcadia. How the God-Machine works in the World is a whole can of worms I'm not getting into. Beasts probably get along well with all the Denizens hanging around just as well as they can with CoD monsters, though Scions are likely to be a problem for them. They're less common and more reasonable than your average Hero, but they're also more powerful, and many have just as much interest in slaying monsters even if it's more of a hobby than an obsession for them, so it's a trade off. In any case, the Scion of Thor probably isn't going to appreciate some giant-looking Begotten terrorizing people, regardless of the fact that they're not an actual Jotunn, and regardless of what "lesson" they think they're teaching.

[Dataweaver]

Note that Mysteries of the World introduced gods that aren't part of any single Pantheon. I would expect the likes of Longinus, the Crone, the Principle, the God-Machine, and the Dark Mother to be “solos”. The First Pack, the Oracles, the Gentry, and the Judges of Duat can be thought of as something like Pantheons; though I'd be careful with that.

For instance, in Mage, each Oracle set up a Watchtower that empowers a certain kind of mage; the Oracles themselves aren't worshipped by mages. But the Watchtowers take a role in the Awakening of a mage that's similar to a scion's divine “parent” during the Visitation. Similar, but now impersonal.

Ironically, there is one Order in Mage that worships Ascended Beings: the Seers of the Throne. It's ironic because the Exarchs explicitly don't empower mages; that's something unique to the Watchtowers of the Oracles, and the Exarchs choose their followers from among the mages that the Watchtowers Awakened. In particular, the Diamond Orders don't worship the Oracles; they, like the Free Council, have a very humanistic perspective. What differentiates the Free Council from them is that the latter argues that the symbols of the Supernal World are ultimately man-made, whereas the Diamond Orders see them as merely having been discovered by humanity.

And that humanism is a common theme in the various Chronicles of Darkness: if there are gods, they're frequently inhuman entities that the protagonists oppose rather than worship. Promethean makes this explicit with the Refinement of Pneuma (Dark Ages Companion pp.164–165), which is described as a flawed Refinement because its followers didn't focus on trying to understand human nature, which is what the Principle wants them to do; and that's one of the more benign relationships: Mage has a maltheistic philosophy, where the gods (or rather, the Exarchs, who deposed the gods the way that Scion's gods deposed the Titans) are oppressive toward humanity. Ditto with the Gentry and the God-Machine. And Geist's krewe system is essentially a “build your own ‘pantheon’” system, with humanity making it's own (death) gods.

By the way: according to Dark Eras, the “gods” of the Uratha were Pangaians: entities native to the now-destroyed Border Marches who existed between flesh and spirit. When an Uratha gets trapped in the Gauntlet, it is effectively stuck in the place where the Border Marches once existed. And that's another theme that comes up several times in the CoD: Werewolf has the Border Marches; Mage has the Time Before; and Mummy has the Nameless Empire.