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Did the Theoi Punish Ovid?

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  • Did the Theoi Punish Ovid?

    Had a thought Ovid was known for rewriting myths and tended to smear the Theoi as part of his political commentary.

    Do you suppose the Theoi in the World did something to him for that?
    Last edited by omenseer; 11-20-2022, 04:43 AM.

  • #2
    I am inclined to say no, just because by then it was Rome and when someone says the gods are capricious maybe being all like "OH YEAH? LETS SEE HOW YOU LIKE BEING TRAPPED IN A GIANT SALT SHAKER WITH NO SKIN!" isn't a good look.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Baroness Nerak View Post
      I am inclined to say no, just because by then it was Rome and when someone says the gods are capricious maybe being all like "OH YEAH? LETS SEE HOW YOU LIKE BEING TRAPPED IN A GIANT SALT SHAKER WITH NO SKIN!" isn't a good look.

      That, plus interacting with one of its most notorious elegists in suh a manner sounds like a surefire way to tempt the workings of Fate.


      All of that said, maybe he was anyway.
      Last edited by Baaldam; 11-20-2022, 06:39 AM.

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      • #4
        On the other claw, the Metamorphosis is one of the greatest poems in world literature. An enduring monument to the Theoi. Compare our sources on the Theoi to those on any other pantheon of Europe and North Africa. Had some pagan Irish bard written a comparable work on the Irish gods, and it had survived to the present, the Irish gods might be playable.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
          On the other claw, the Metamorphosis is one of the greatest poems in world literature. An enduring monument to the Theoi. Compare our sources on the Theoi to those on any other pantheon of Europe and North Africa. Had some pagan Irish bard written a comparable work on the Irish gods, and it had survived to the present, the Irish gods might be playable.
          There's a lot to unpack here, but to keep things Scion-focused and for the sake of future editions, do you think you could explain how you've found the Tuatha to be unplayable in your experience? It would help.


          Scion 2E Freelancer: Origin; Hero; Demigod; God; Mythical Denizens; Mysteries of the World; Saints & Monsters; No Gods, No Masters; Once & Future, Realms of Magic & Mystery

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Baroness Nerak View Post
            I am inclined to say no, just because by then it was Rome and when someone says the gods are capricious maybe being all like "OH YEAH? LETS SEE HOW YOU LIKE BEING TRAPPED IN A GIANT SALT SHAKER WITH NO SKIN!" isn't a good look.
            Fair. Don't legitimize by engaging?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


              That, plus interacting with one of its most notorious elegists in suh a manner sounds like a surefire way to tempt the workings of Fate.


              All of that said, maybe he was anyway.
              They just decided to be subtle about it.

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              • #8
                People in the ancient world were constantly rewriting myths--the Abrahamic religions are unusual in having a clearly defined canon. And even parts of the Bible are not consistent with each other.

                And the Theoi looking bad is something that goes back to Homer, who depicted them as akin to spoiled brats.

                Plato was of the opinion that most myths simply weren't true, because the gods, by their nature, were models of perfect virtue and that's certainly not how they look in Greco-Roman myth. The poet Pindar, on the other hand, held that the myths were true, but that humans are not in a position to morally judge the actions of gods.

                As for how this plays out in the World, I would expect the Theoi and other pantheons are used to people reworking myths. And smiting people who are recording your stories is probably not a good way to have people to continue to honor you, as opposed to finding some other gods.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Geoffrey View Post

                  There's a lot to unpack here, but to keep things Scion-focused and for the sake of future editions, do you think you could explain how you've found the Tuatha to be unplayable in your experience? It would help.
                  Not the original poster, but what we have of Irish mythology was recorded by Christian monks, who were torn between preserving their heritage and making things conform to Christian orthodoxy. The result is that they spindled, folded and mutilated the Irish myths and gods. The stories we have tie the creation of the world to Genesis in the Bible, rather than whatever it was the ancient Irish believed and the gods are very much euhemerized, to the point where they lose a war to the Irish and are forced to retreat underground. I suspect originally they were thought of as ancestral spirits living underground in tombs, but we'll probably never know for sure.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Geoffrey View Post

                    There's a lot to unpack here, but to keep things Scion-focused and for the sake of future editions, do you think you could explain how you've found the Tuatha to be unplayable in your experience? It would help.
                    In the first edition they used what were in essence Yeats' take on the Irish gods. Not accurate, but fully playable. In the second edition, the Irish gods are uniquely stuck in the past. We are told about Manitous for Computer Software. We are told about the Orishas and the Loas being up to date. The Theoi and the Norse gods (I know the proper name but my spell checker rejects it) aren't locked in the past. Only the Tuatha act like they did in the early middle ages

                    I am not of exclusively Irish heritage, but more Irish than anything else, it kind of ticks me off.

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                    • #11
                      One of the recurring themes of Ovid's Metamorphoses (arguably his magnum opus) is the power of love to make fools of even the gods. In the World of Scion, it is very likely that he was inspired by Amor/Cupid, mantle(s) of Eros (who in Scion is maybe a Primordial who incarnated as an offspring of Ares/Mars and Aphrodite/Venus for reasons likely involving tying himself more closely to the Olympians and/or humanity, if I understand the setting metaphysics correctly). As such, his work is patroned by one of the Theoi, possibly a powerful one.


                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                      • #12
                        I was going to like No One of Consequence's post. But I can't seem to log in.

                        The issue resolved itself. I'm confused.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                          One of the recurring themes of Ovid's Metamorphoses (arguably his magnum opus) is the power of love to make fools of even the gods. In the World of Scion, it is very likely that he was inspired by Amor/Cupid, mantle(s) of Eros (who in Scion is maybe a Primordial who incarnated as an offspring of Ares/Mars and Aphrodite/Venus for reasons likely involving tying himself more closely to the Olympians and/or humanity, if I understand the setting metaphysics correctly). As such, his work is patroned by one of the Theoi, possibly a powerful one.
                          That is an interesting detail. Some of the Theoi are like who keeps protecting him and Eros is off to the side whistling while Athena grumbles inwardly.

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                          • #14
                            Artemis probably finds the story of her and Actaeon to be deeply satisfying.

                            Also, the recent Overly Sarcastic Productions video about Zeus and Hera makes the interesting point that the Theoi aren't just people but are the embodiment of certain concepts. Artemis, in the above example, isn't so much reacting to the embarrassment of Actaeon seeing her (and her retainers) in the nude, but more to the fact that his actions are an affront to the very concept of Virginal Maidenhood. To not punish him would likely lessen her as a divine being.

                            On a certain level, Zeus is Hospitality, Hera is Marriage, Athena is Skill, and so on. To be inhospitable to a guest, especially when it is Zeus, is not just a personal insult, but one to his divine being and station. The idea of Zeus not punishing someone for that probably never even occurs to a classic Greek or Roman audience.

                            From another angle (again if I have my Scion metaphysics right), one could interpret the story of Aracne as a Scion of Athena who has decided to challenge her divine patron in an effort to become a Demigod of Weaving only to fail in the attempt.


                            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                            • #15
                              But in The Odyssey, Zeus does punish the Phaeacians for showing hospitality to Odysseus, though they had no way of knowing that he had incurred the wrath of the Gods. To modern eyes this looks hypocritical.

                              But I am reminded of something I read by Paula Gunn Allen, a Native American shaman--that even the most benign powers can be dangerous if not approached with respect, something she worries modern neo-pagans don't understand.

                              And Sophocles in his play Oedipus at Colonus depicts the Gods as perfectly just--in many ways, his description of them as transcendent, all-knowing, all-just beings reminds me of how the God of Abraham is depicted in the Hebrew Bible. And Sophocles considers the mass punishment of the people of Thebes for harboring the man who murdered their last king and has not married his own mother just--even though none of them knew that this was what had happened. It's a different idea of justice from our own.

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