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Did the Theoi Punish Ovid?

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  • #16
    Zeus doesn't so much punish the Phaeacians as he allows Poseidon to punish them for aiding a man the Earthshaker had a legit beef with. Turning their better-than-everyone-else's sailing ships into rocks, effectively taking away the gift of the sea, is something that would fall under Poseidon's dominion rather than his brother. And the stone boat thing is a compromise between the two, when Poseidon being who he is probably wanted to do something involving earthquakes and tidal waves, and Zeus talking him down.

    Added: Poseidon is also the Phaeacians' patron god, so this is him taking some or all of that away, which is probably seen as his right. His punishment also fulfills an earlier prophecy, which probably also influences Zeus's actions.
    Last edited by No One of Consequence; 11-21-2022, 03:18 PM.


    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #17
      Which is all to say that the Gods' actions make sense and are fair from their own perspective, just not that of contemporary people. But that's part of Scion--Gods from another age trying to operate in the contemporary world.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Muskrat View Post
        Which is all to say that the Gods' actions make sense and are fair from their own perspective, just not that of contemporary people. But that's part of Scion--Gods from another age trying to operate in the contemporary world.
        One of the things I wish OP had the budget for is to give each pantheon its own sourcebook which included a lengthy section on how that ancient culture looked at the world and society, how that impacts how the members (including human cultist) think and act, and how it will often differ with what modern audiences are used to. Because I think that has the potential to be one of the more interesting angles for roleplaying in the game.
        Last edited by No One of Consequence; 11-21-2022, 04:48 PM.


        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
          One of the things I wish OP had the budget for is to give each pantheon its own sourcebook which included a lengthy section on how that ancient culture looked at the world and society, how that impacts how the members (including human cultist) think and act, and how it will often differ with what modern audiences are used to. Because I think that has the potential to be one of the more interesting angles for roleplaying in the game.
          Agreed. One of the things I like about Watcher's fan pantheons is the extensive backgrounds he gives on the cultures. We also want to be careful not those ancient cultures were unified in any respect, including in how they saw the Gods. My impression from reading Homer is that he thought of the Gods much the same way people in his day may well have thought of kings--as necessary for order, whether social or cosmic, but dangerous and not always reasonable. This is very different than Sophocles, though admittedly the two did live centuries apart.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
            One of the things I wish OP had the budget for is to give each pantheon its own sourcebook which included a lengthy section on how that ancient culture looked at the world and society, how that impacts how the members (including human cultist) think and act, and how it will often differ with what modern audiences are used to. Because I think that has the potential to be one of the more interesting angles for roleplaying in the game.
            This is a good idea, but has more going against it than OPPs budget. Many of the Pantheons, such as the Tuatha and Nemetondevos and to a degree Aesir as well as groups like the Teotl and K'un, is we have limited insight into the societies, much less the gods. Trying to reconstruct even Aesir and the attitudes toward the gods is hard, because nothing was written down before Christianization. The Tuatha are worse, the Nemetondevos even worse. We do know some, but not a great deal. Others, like the Shen, Theoi, and Netjer, have so much diversity over geography and time, thousands of years, that the answers are very inconsistent on even very basic ideas. Like who the head of the Netjer Pantheon was, for example, or if it had a head. There is also weirdness like we don't know how women worshipped the Theoi because almost no information on that survived. We just know it was (in many places/eras) different. We see Netjer and Annuna from the most wealthy, we see Shen from the perspective of the most educated...we have a minority of the information that has existed.

            None of this is to say it would be impossible or you could not do a great book on it. A lot has been and is being done by historians, religious studies persons, anthropologists, reconstructionist pagans and combinations thereof. I am like 3 of those things. Just that there are a lot of challenges and those challenges vary. On the other hand, there really has never been a better time.

            I can recommend a handful of really good Youtube Channels that seem (IMO anyway) pretty accurate in their giving information on some of these, or at least don't make me want to clutch my head and scream a lot.


            Onyx Path Moderator
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            • #21
              Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
              One of the things I wish OP had the budget for is to give each pantheon its own sourcebook which included a lengthy section on how that ancient culture looked at the world and society, how that impacts how the members (including human cultist) think and act, and how it will often differ with what modern audiences are used to. Because I think that has the potential to be one of the more interesting angles for roleplaying in the game.
              I think it's doable for the most popular Pantheons. (Greek, Norse, Egyptian, ect). Other pantheons could be gathered up in themed books with four Pantheons to the book. Same treatment on a smaller scale. Something beats nothing.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Baroness Nerak View Post
                Others, like the Shen, Theoi, and Netjer, have so much diversity over geography and time, thousands of years
                I now have this image in my head of three Shen demigods, one from the Han period, one from the Tang, and one from the Qing, constantly arguing about how their department of the Celestial Bureaucracy is supposed to properly work. And the modern Heroes who work under them constantly grimacing in frustration.


                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Astromancer View Post

                  I think it's doable for the most popular Pantheons. (Greek, Norse, Egyptian, ect). Other pantheons could be gathered up in themed books with four Pantheons to the book. Same treatment on a smaller scale. Something beats nothing.
                  Yeah that is very true


                  Onyx Path Moderator
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                  This is my mod voice. This is my goth voice.
                  [Geist: Balance of Shadows ][ Vampire: The Conspiracy of Hrad Černá Hora ][ Scion: Bohemian Front][Changeling: Malibu Dream House] [Demon: Night Train Detective Agency] [WoD: The Golden Eagle]

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                  • #24
                    Regarding how the Theoi developed over time, Tom Stone's Zeus: A Journey Through Greece in the Footsteps of a God is a very readable account of the god's origins and how he and his worship evolved and spread, based on about 20 years of going all over Greece and doing research.


                    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                      Regarding how the Theoi developed over time, Tom Stone's Zeus: A Journey Through Greece in the Footsteps of a God is a very readable account of the god's origins and how he and his worship evolved and spread, based on about 20 years of going all over Greece and doing research.
                      Having read that book, it's great. And you can get it cheap online.

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                      • #26
                        Well, with the Shen, they're a living tradition in Daoism and Chinese folk religion. This is true of a number of the other Asian pantheons as well. Even the Apu of the Inca are still worshiped by Quechua peoples in the highland Andes--Rituals of Respect by Inge Bolin is an anthropological overview of their rites in one village. So for such pantheons, it might well be a matter of digging into the anthropological literature to see how they are currently honored.

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                        • #27
                          Just to add to my last post: And many indigenous peoples' pantheons are also living traditions.

                          Though with writing up the religious, etc. practices of living traditions, you'd want to show the same care as Onyx Path has shown with their pantheons to be as respectful as possible, especially with oppressed groups like indigenous peoples, followers of the Loa, etc.

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