Columbia and the U.S. pantheon?

[Dataweaver]

I do like how you're deliberately avoiding picking sides with this idea, by requiring both sides to include a Titanic Calling. I'm not sure that “Everyman” and “Mob” would apply, though, as I suspect that those who subscribe to the side that you call “the Mob” would never use that term to describe themselves. Instead, you've got two competing notions of what “The Everyman” is.

[The Kings Raven]

I do like how you're deliberately avoiding picking sides with this idea, by requiring both sides to include a Titanic Calling.

Thank you.

I'm not sure that “Everyman” and “Mob” would apply, though, as I suspect that those who subscribe to the side that you call “the Mob” would never use that term to describe themselves. Instead, you've got two competing notions of what “The Everyman” is.

I did consider suggesting "The Ninety Nine Percent" as an replacement for The Mob. But then I thought that while both sides consider themselves to be the ordinary and decent majority, they also consider the other side to be The Mob. I'll avoid giving examples because this isn't a politics forum but I'm sure I don't need to. You could split the Everyman into four. But I think it works fine as two, the callings are correct regardless of whose perspective is used.

I don't think think every God will or needs to fit the pattern of both sides identifying as X and the other side as Y. Some will definitely have Team X vs Team Y. But for the Everyman, I think it works.

[Lady Darcia]

Regarding this "Titan" debate, i tend to agree with King Raven's idea of Mantles rather than fixed Titans. If we take what little we know from Columbia, based solely on the books of the second edition, we know she is the goddess of Liberty, a Scion of Athena who followed her own way, transforming New York into a haven for all Pantheons...and yet, she is mentionned to have sanctionned the invasion of Haïti in 1915 as a pretext to warred against the Loa ! Clearly, you can see how they are contradictory Callings at play here (plus, it gives the Orisha/Loa an antagonistic ¨Pantheon to play with).

All of this to say, that while the idea of a Pantheon about to succomb to its Titans could be neat, i find it more interesting if the American Pantheon were on the brink of creating its Titans. These Gods, pulled in different directions by contradictory Mantles, could go either way (Columbia could either become Lady Liberty or the Manifest Destiny, for example) while still perfectly convinced of doing the right decision. This could create a rift, and also very interesting scenarios for your players : maybe it's the action of their Scions that will tip the fragile balance of said God or Goddess in one way or another, by shaping the Virtues of their Pantheon, or maybe one of their Scion could take up the Mantle not chosen by one of the God, thus creating a two diverging visions of what America is supposed to represents. Afterall, what is two hundred years of existence for Gods compared to the Annuna for example ? The Pantheon could still well be in its infancy, shaping itself slowly but surely through the twists of Fate.

I know this all political heavy, given the actual circumstances, and thus i think that no matter what, the American Pantheon deserve, if used, a very good and solid session zero with your players, to make sure they are comfortable with all the concepts at play here. Because even if you go with fixed Titans, this is a very touchy subject that can easily derailed (hence why i tend not to include an American Pantheon into my play, but I really enjoy all this section, because it kinda gives a glimpse at all the fine work and tuning that Onyx Path must do when creating a Pantheon).

[The Kings Raven]

That's precisely the sort of things I had in mind, you said it better than I did

[Mizu]

Mysteries of the World still does have a section on being the Scion of a God with no Pantheon on p. 70. Columbia is still briefly mentioned there--presumably the full write up was meant to be an example of a independent God.

As I understand it, her write-up was pulled because it played down her connection to the ideology of manifest destiny--and therefore her connection to the conquest and genocide of Native Americans. The devs ultimately decided that they couldn't do justice to her in the space they had.

I think you can use what's there to do a Scion of Columbia. It's simply a matter of assigning what seem like appropriate Callings and Purviews.

The Republican Pantheon on DriveThru is well thought out and you could certainly use that if you wanted Columbia to be part of a Pantheon. However, it left me with the impression that the author didn't understand how the Virtue system worked, since they assigned each God one individual Virtue. You could go with the standard Theoi Virtues or work up something more appropriate for a contemporary republic Pantheon like Justice and Liberty.

That statue of liberty/columbia was used as a symbol by manifest destiny types? I have learned something new today. Also very interested in your fan write up of the pantheon, No One of Consequence. Please keep up the good work on it.

[literatzi]

That statue of liberty/columbia was used as a symbol by manifest destiny types? I have learned something new today.

If you google 'manifest destiny' Columbia is the first image that comes up, most famously from the painting 'American Progress' by John Gast where she is bringing light to the west as the native americans are driven away and railroads and telegraph wires stretch out behind her.

[Amethyst]

Regarding this "Titan" debate, i tend to agree with King Raven's idea of Mantles rather than fixed Titans. If we take what little we know from Columbia, based solely on the books of the second edition, we know she is the goddess of Liberty, a Scion of Athena who followed her own way, transforming New York into a haven for all Pantheons...and yet, she is mentionned to have sanctionned the invasion of Haïti in 1915 as a pretext to warred against the Loa ! Clearly, you can see how they are contradictory Callings at play here (plus, it gives the Orisha/Loa an antagonistic ¨Pantheon to play with).

All of this to say, that while the idea of a Pantheon about to succomb to its Titans could be neat, i find it more interesting if the American Pantheon were on the brink of creating its Titans. These Gods, pulled in different directions by contradictory Mantles, could go either way (Columbia could either become Lady Liberty or the Manifest Destiny, for example) while still perfectly convinced of doing the right decision. This could create a rift, and also very interesting scenarios for your players : maybe it's the action of their Scions that will tip the fragile balance of said God or Goddess in one way or another, by shaping the Virtues of their Pantheon, or maybe one of their Scion could take up the Mantle not chosen by one of the God, thus creating a two diverging visions of what America is supposed to represents. Afterall, what is two hundred years of existence for Gods compared to the Annuna for example ? The Pantheon could still well be in its infancy, shaping itself slowly but surely through the twists of Fate.

I know this all political heavy, given the actual circumstances, and thus i think that no matter what, the American Pantheon deserve, if used, a very good and solid session zero with your players, to make sure they are comfortable with all the concepts at play here. Because even if you go with fixed Titans, this is a very touchy subject that can easily derailed (hence why i tend not to include an American Pantheon into my play, but I really enjoy all this section, because it kinda gives a glimpse at all the fine work and tuning that Onyx Path must do when creating a Pantheon).

I really like this idea of how to use Columbia and the American Pantheon. I feel like right now the Pantheon is at a crossroads and could go either way depending on the actions of the PC Scions.

[The Kings Raven]

I think the Theoi virtues fit perfectly for American pantheon.
Egotism is all about the self, the freedom to be what you want, the opportunities, liberty, freedom of speak, free market, etc.
Kinship is all about the social, the neighbors, the family, the security and the respect for the next.

You get the big Freedom X Safety, giving up freedom to be safer or giving up safety to be free. It’s a discussion running for a while now, but it goes deeper. The two parties are also a mix of this two virtues, Democrats want the society over all and freedom to be yourself, and Republicans want an homogeneous society with each individual taking care of themselves.

Re-reading the thread I have to endorse this entirely. The fact Democrats/Republicans both have a conflict between (I suggest labelling them Liberty/Community for a more American feel) but their conflict manifests in opposite ways makes it utterly perfect.