Columbia and the U.S. pantheon?

[The Kings Raven]

I think the Theoi virtues fit perfectly for American pantheon.
Egotism is all about the self, the freedom to be what you want, the opportunities, liberty, freedom of speak, free market, etc.
Kinship is all about the social, the neighbors, the family, the security and the respect for the next.

You get the big Freedom X Safety, giving up freedom to be safer or giving up safety to be free. It’s a discussion running for a while now, but it goes deeper. The two parties are also a mix of this two virtues, Democrats want the society over all and freedom to be yourself, and Republicans want an homogeneous society with each individual taking care of themselves.

Re-reading the thread I have to endorse this entirely. The fact Democrats/Republicans both have a conflict between (I suggest labelling them Liberty/Community for a more American feel) but their conflict manifests in opposite ways makes it utterly perfect.

[Amethyst]

Regarding this "Titan" debate, i tend to agree with King Raven's idea of Mantles rather than fixed Titans. If we take what little we know from Columbia, based solely on the books of the second edition, we know she is the goddess of Liberty, a Scion of Athena who followed her own way, transforming New York into a haven for all Pantheons...and yet, she is mentionned to have sanctionned the invasion of Haïti in 1915 as a pretext to warred against the Loa ! Clearly, you can see how they are contradictory Callings at play here (plus, it gives the Orisha/Loa an antagonistic ¨Pantheon to play with).

All of this to say, that while the idea of a Pantheon about to succomb to its Titans could be neat, i find it more interesting if the American Pantheon were on the brink of creating its Titans. These Gods, pulled in different directions by contradictory Mantles, could go either way (Columbia could either become Lady Liberty or the Manifest Destiny, for example) while still perfectly convinced of doing the right decision. This could create a rift, and also very interesting scenarios for your players : maybe it's the action of their Scions that will tip the fragile balance of said God or Goddess in one way or another, by shaping the Virtues of their Pantheon, or maybe one of their Scion could take up the Mantle not chosen by one of the God, thus creating a two diverging visions of what America is supposed to represents. Afterall, what is two hundred years of existence for Gods compared to the Annuna for example ? The Pantheon could still well be in its infancy, shaping itself slowly but surely through the twists of Fate.

I know this all political heavy, given the actual circumstances, and thus i think that no matter what, the American Pantheon deserve, if used, a very good and solid session zero with your players, to make sure they are comfortable with all the concepts at play here. Because even if you go with fixed Titans, this is a very touchy subject that can easily derailed (hence why i tend not to include an American Pantheon into my play, but I really enjoy all this section, because it kinda gives a glimpse at all the fine work and tuning that Onyx Path must do when creating a Pantheon).

I really like this idea of how to use Columbia and the American Pantheon. I feel like right now the Pantheon is at a crossroads and could go either way depending on the actions of the PC Scions.

[literatzi]

That statue of liberty/columbia was used as a symbol by manifest destiny types? I have learned something new today.

If you google 'manifest destiny' Columbia is the first image that comes up, most famously from the painting 'American Progress' by John Gast where she is bringing light to the west as the native americans are driven away and railroads and telegraph wires stretch out behind her.

[Mizu]

Mysteries of the World still does have a section on being the Scion of a God with no Pantheon on p. 70. Columbia is still briefly mentioned there--presumably the full write up was meant to be an example of a independent God.

As I understand it, her write-up was pulled because it played down her connection to the ideology of manifest destiny--and therefore her connection to the conquest and genocide of Native Americans. The devs ultimately decided that they couldn't do justice to her in the space they had.

I think you can use what's there to do a Scion of Columbia. It's simply a matter of assigning what seem like appropriate Callings and Purviews.

The Republican Pantheon on DriveThru is well thought out and you could certainly use that if you wanted Columbia to be part of a Pantheon. However, it left me with the impression that the author didn't understand how the Virtue system worked, since they assigned each God one individual Virtue. You could go with the standard Theoi Virtues or work up something more appropriate for a contemporary republic Pantheon like Justice and Liberty.

That statue of liberty/columbia was used as a symbol by manifest destiny types? I have learned something new today. Also very interested in your fan write up of the pantheon, No One of Consequence. Please keep up the good work on it.

[The Kings Raven]

That's precisely the sort of things I had in mind, you said it better than I did

[Lady Darcia]

Regarding this "Titan" debate, i tend to agree with King Raven's idea of Mantles rather than fixed Titans. If we take what little we know from Columbia, based solely on the books of the second edition, we know she is the goddess of Liberty, a Scion of Athena who followed her own way, transforming New York into a haven for all Pantheons...and yet, she is mentionned to have sanctionned the invasion of Haïti in 1915 as a pretext to warred against the Loa ! Clearly, you can see how they are contradictory Callings at play here (plus, it gives the Orisha/Loa an antagonistic ¨Pantheon to play with).

All of this to say, that while the idea of a Pantheon about to succomb to its Titans could be neat, i find it more interesting if the American Pantheon were on the brink of creating its Titans. These Gods, pulled in different directions by contradictory Mantles, could go either way (Columbia could either become Lady Liberty or the Manifest Destiny, for example) while still perfectly convinced of doing the right decision. This could create a rift, and also very interesting scenarios for your players : maybe it's the action of their Scions that will tip the fragile balance of said God or Goddess in one way or another, by shaping the Virtues of their Pantheon, or maybe one of their Scion could take up the Mantle not chosen by one of the God, thus creating a two diverging visions of what America is supposed to represents. Afterall, what is two hundred years of existence for Gods compared to the Annuna for example ? The Pantheon could still well be in its infancy, shaping itself slowly but surely through the twists of Fate.

I know this all political heavy, given the actual circumstances, and thus i think that no matter what, the American Pantheon deserve, if used, a very good and solid session zero with your players, to make sure they are comfortable with all the concepts at play here. Because even if you go with fixed Titans, this is a very touchy subject that can easily derailed (hence why i tend not to include an American Pantheon into my play, but I really enjoy all this section, because it kinda gives a glimpse at all the fine work and tuning that Onyx Path must do when creating a Pantheon).

[The Kings Raven]

I do like how you're deliberately avoiding picking sides with this idea, by requiring both sides to include a Titanic Calling.

Thank you.

I'm not sure that “Everyman” and “Mob” would apply, though, as I suspect that those who subscribe to the side that you call “the Mob” would never use that term to describe themselves. Instead, you've got two competing notions of what “The Everyman” is.

I did consider suggesting "The Ninety Nine Percent" as an replacement for The Mob. But then I thought that while both sides consider themselves to be the ordinary and decent majority, they also consider the other side to be The Mob. I'll avoid giving examples because this isn't a politics forum but I'm sure I don't need to. You could split the Everyman into four. But I think it works fine as two, the callings are correct regardless of whose perspective is used.

I don't think think every God will or needs to fit the pattern of both sides identifying as X and the other side as Y. Some will definitely have Team X vs Team Y. But for the Everyman, I think it works.

[Dataweaver]

I do like how you're deliberately avoiding picking sides with this idea, by requiring both sides to include a Titanic Calling. I'm not sure that “Everyman” and “Mob” would apply, though, as I suspect that those who subscribe to the side that you call “the Mob” would never use that term to describe themselves. Instead, you've got two competing notions of what “The Everyman” is.

[The Kings Raven]

I will mention that some of the gods have developed Titanic mantels, such as Uncle Sam as Uncle Sugar (an antagonistic figure to many of the pantheons of Latin America and the Caribbean, as well as others), or the Everyman as The Mob (as in torches and pitchforks, not organized crime).

Here's an absolutely crazy idea that veers dangerously into the political. What if the general pattern is is not God & Titan. But two mantles both with 2 regular callings and one titanic calling. The idea being that with America's current political divisions is dividing the gods into opposing mantles. Each getting two regular Callings from the side of America that supports them, and a Titanic mantle from the side that opposes them.

So The Everyman has Lover, Judge, and Tyrant representing family values (Lover), the voice of common decency (Judge), but also trying to enforce his values (Tyrant). Its counterpart The Mob has Lover, Guardian, and Destroyer representing solidarity (Lover), fighting for the little guy (Guardian), but also tearing down the status quo without an idea of how to replace it (Destroyer).

This would also help with the one thing I found a bit odd above, which is the idea of the state and big business as purely titanic forces. Even now America's relation to those concepts is far more nuanced, e.g. everyone demanding medicare for all is not going to see the state as a titan.

[TheWanderingJewels]

I tend to look at the various Gods from a long term Perspective and comparatively modern thought doesn't really bother them very much. While she does protect immigrants and promotes various rights and such, she would likely respond about Manifest Destiny with, 'What of it? As every civilization seeking to promote it's own values will go to War with those it might perceive as a potential threat, so I did when it was needed. It is not now. And I prefer keeping it that way.", with the subtext of you really don't want Her going that way again.

[No One of Consequence]

My general thinking is that these are aspects/incarnations that have been corrupted by the three main Titans, and that the pantheon as a whole is in serious danger of falling to its Titans (which is something I don't think we have seen yet with any of the existing pantheons, IIRC).

I'm also poking at the idea of a cult of sorcerers called the Wizards of Menlo Park.

[Dataweaver]

Well, the Orisha don't believe in Titans anyway; so it wouldn't be inappropriate for the American Gods to have Titanic “evil twins”. Leave it up to the Storyguide as to which mantle the actual god favors and which is an unwanted result of Fatebinding: if you want the Pantheon to be a more or less noble one, its gods favor the regular Mantles and struggle against the Titanic ones; if you want the Pantheon to be more or less destructive, have its gods favor the Titanic Mantles and only use the regular Mantles when convenient or when forced to. That gives both sides of the argument without taking sides.

[No One of Consequence]

I will mention that some of the gods have developed Titanic mantels, such as Uncle Sam as Uncle Sugar (an antagonistic figure to many of the pantheons of Latin America and the Caribbean, as well as others), or the Everyman as The Mob (as in torches and pitchforks, not organized crime).

[TheWanderingJewels]

So, a brief update/expansion of sorts.

Primordials

The American Dream
The Founding Fathers

The American Dream has no Scions, but probably inspires Saints. The Founding Fathers may or may not have Scions, I'm not sure yet. (If they did, the Callings would probably be Leader, Sage, and Shepherd.)


Major Gods

America (Tripple Goddess)

• Columbia - Guardian, Leader, Shepherd
• Lady Liberty - Guardian, Healer, Leader
• Lady Justice - Guardian, Judge, Sage

Uncle Sam - Guardian, Leader, Warrior

Other Gods (partial list)

The Working Class Hero (aka John Henry, Pecos Bill, Mose Humphrey, Joe Magarac, and many others) - Creator, Guardian, Sage
The Everyman (aka John Q. Public, The Silent Majority, The Jones, etc.) - Guardian, Lover, Judge or Sage
The American Idol - Leader, Lover, Trickster
Necessity, Mother of Invention - Creator, Sage, [one other]
The Unknown Soldier - Guardian, Luminal, Warrior


Titans

Leviathan/The State (aka Big Brother, The Military Industrial Complex) - Destroyer, Leader, Tyrant
Behemoth/Industry (aka Big Business, The Corporation, O'Mighty Dollar) - Lover, Tyrant, [one other]
The Boogieman - Adversary, Hunter, Monster

Still hammering out a lot of details, including Purviews, Virtues, and other odds and ends.

Seems pretty solid so far. Keep going with.

[No One of Consequence]

So, a brief update/expansion of sorts.

Primordials

The American Dream
The Founding Fathers

The American Dream has no Scions, but probably inspires Saints. The Founding Fathers may or may not have Scions, I'm not sure yet. (If they did, the Callings would probably be Leader, Sage, and Shepherd.)


Major Gods

America (Tripple Goddess)

• Columbia - Guardian, Leader, Shepherd
• Lady Liberty - Guardian, Healer, Leader
• Lady Justice - Guardian, Judge, Sage

Uncle Sam - Guardian, Leader, Warrior

Other Gods (partial list)

The Working Class Hero (aka John Henry, Pecos Bill, Mose Humphrey, Joe Magarac, and many others) - Creator, Guardian, Sage
The Everyman (aka John Q. Public, The Silent Majority, The Jones, etc.) - Guardian, Lover, Judge or Sage
The American Idol - Leader, Lover, Trickster
Necessity, Mother of Invention - Creator, Sage, [one other]
The Unknown Soldier - Guardian, Luminal, Warrior


Titans

Leviathan/The State (aka Big Brother, The Military Industrial Complex) - Destroyer, Leader, Tyrant
Behemoth/Industry (aka Big Business, The Corporation, O'Mighty Dollar) - Lover, Tyrant, [one other]
The Boogieman - Adversary, Hunter, Monster

Still hammering out a lot of details, including Purviews, Virtues, and other odds and ends.