Preview: Once and Future

[Dataweaver]

And look how much of that made it into the Tuatha write-up.

[FallenEco]

What needs to be erased?

Lancelot comes to mind, as he was a later addition explicitly there to represent "courtly love". (Obvious French origin helps here) Tying the whole affair to the fall of Camelot and Galahad were counter points to that 'movement'. As such, i imagine their roles look a lot different in the World of Scion. This is just the first thing that pops into my head when the thought of bring the Arthurian mythos into a reconstructed Welsh pantheon as it clearly would be a result of a reprisal of the original myth. Like if Chirion died but shows up again as a motorcycle centaur.
Maybe even have certain individuals (such as deities and immortals) feel uncomfortable as they see such elements as subversions of the myth.

Funnily enough, I'm aware that this isn't the most...Christen element of the myth, but given it's origin and backlash within the development of the story, not mention the huge shadow it leaves over the narrative for modern audiences, i do feel it needs to be addressed

[Muskrat]

Feudal≠Christian.

Yes, I know. That's why I specified both. The feudal nobility of Europe identified as Christian, whatever you or I might think of their interpretation of Christianity. And feudalism in the strictest sense of the term--a non-state system of hierarchical vassalage--seems to have only developed in one other society, medieval Japan.

[Muskrat]

Like Lacelot, Camelot is a creation of Chretien de Troyes--Arthur's Welsh home was Carelon Upon the Usk. Like Lancelot, Galahad is a late--indeed, an even later addition--to the Arthurian cycle and would have to go if you wanted to return to the cycle's Welsh roots. Gawain is likely a creation of English story-tellers--with the exception of Mallory, in English stories, it is Gawain who is the model knight, not Lancelot. The Round Table itself is an invention of an English chronicler.

Tristan/Trystan and Merlin/Merddyn both have Welsh roots (indeed, they may have been historical figures), but were only connected to the Arthurian cycle by later English and French chroniclers and story-tellers.

We do have Welsh versions of the stories of Erec/Geraint and Perceval/Peredur, but it's not clear if they inspired Chretien de Troyes or the other way around.

The figures and things who can be firmly tied to the old Welsh Arthur are Kay/Cei, Bedivere/Bedwyr, Ywain/Owain, Melegant/Melwas, Mordred/Medrawd, Guenevere/Gwenhwyvar, Excalbur/Caledfwlch, and the Battle of Camlann. It's still recognizably Arthur, but a stripped down version of it.

Going by the picture they posted though, I don't think we have to worry about having an orthodox Welsh or Medieval feudal-Christian version of the Arthurian cycle. Not only do they have a Round Table, but they have a samurai and a Chinese and Arab warrior. I'll be interested to see how they handle that.

[marin]

Lancelot comes to mind, as he was a later addition explicitly there to represent "courtly love". (Obvious French origin helps here) Tying the whole affair to the fall of Camelot and Galahad were counter points to that 'movement'. As such, i imagine their roles look a lot different in the World of Scion. This is just the first thing that pops into my head when the thought of bring the Arthurian mythos into a reconstructed Welsh pantheon as it clearly would be a result of a reprisal of the original myth. Like if Chirion died but shows up again as a motorcycle centaur.
Maybe even have certain individuals (such as deities and immortals) feel uncomfortable as they see such elements as subversions of the myth.

Funnily enough, I'm aware that this isn't the most...Christen element of the myth, but given it's origin and backlash within the development of the story, not mention the huge shadow it leaves over the narrative for modern audiences, i do feel it needs to be addressed

From the art - particularly the one used for this preview - I doubt that bringing Arthur into a reconstructed Welsh pantheon is what's going to be happening. I suspect it's looking more at Welsh myth and legendry as where Arthur comes from, and how the Arthurian mythos is - and can be - reinterpreted over time and space.

[Apregis]

What needs to be erased?

In general, the Vulgate Cycle. This take Grail Quest is obviously Christian and I prefer the de Troyes version. Merlin and Morgan are heavily changed (Merlin go from druid to a failed Anti-Christ, and Morgan go from mysterious Fae to the vindicative sister of Arthur).

That said I like some of the introduction of the Cycle, notably the Lancelot/Guinievre romance causing the fall of Camlot (tragedy work well in Scion), and Morgan (who go from the evil sister of Arthur to a more benevolent figure who take him to Avalon).

[Lady Darcia]

So, regarding this whole debate about expurging the entirity of the Arthurian mythos of its christian influences...i feel it kinda misses the point. As Fallen Eco adressed, a lot of the narrative we associate with this story would just becomes null : no Lancelot, no damsel of the Lake, no Mordred, no Percival, this list could go on for a while. Even if we just focused on the supposed welsh texts, most of them came to us through manuscripts dating back to the 13th century, well after the christianization of England and Wales.

I am not saying we should not search for the original aspects of the Arthurian legend, just that, like other synchretic stories, it's very difficult to dissociate what's from christian origins and what is'nt. Take the example of Loki and the Ragnarök : the story was heavily changed by christian morality and ideas, to fit the idea of the Anti-christ, rebirth, judgement and the afterlife. Yet without these monks and priests writing down these myths, we would today miss key elements of these myths. Same for the Tuatha.

Finally, taking a step back from real life, and focusing back to Scion, "all myths are true" in the World, even christians ones, as shown in Saints and Monsters with the reference to the witch of Endor. As such, would it not be more interesting to focus on a Arthurian pantheon united by chivalry, finding a fragile balance between its welsh roots with knights like Bedwyr that have fallen to semi-obscurity, and more well-known figure brought through the christian faith, such as Lancelot ?

Whatever Onyx Path have in store for us, i am confident that all those talking points will be adressed anyway.

[wyrdhamster]

I'm not antropologist, but from narrative point of view - Can Onyx Path simply 'recast' Christian elements as Welsh native ones? Scion World assumes polyteistic religions are all active, from antiquity to modern times. Welsh myths did not 'died out' at the start of Middle Ages, their gods are all alive to this day. So maybe it's Welsh Pantheon made Grail ( as Sacred Culdron ) and Knights of the Round Table are Scions of this Pantheon on the service of their Gods?

[Muskrat]

I imagine we might get rules for multiple versions of the Round Table. Indeed, though I can't seem to find it, I'm pretty sure one of the main rulebooks has a brief reference to multiple versions of the Round Table, with different versions affiliated with different pantheons. Or they may decide to go with what we see in the picture and have a multi-cultural Round Table.

What intrigues me is that they talk about Arthurian characters having Mantles. I suspect this might be the means by which they allow for multiple versions of the Round Table, just like many gods have multiple Mantles, sometimes within one pantheon, sometimes across many. And I could see this mechanic applying to other heroes with many different versions, like Robin Hood.

[Purple Snit]

Alternatively, the book will be about general Welsh myths and legends; the patheon and its members; and the general concept of the cycle of "rise and fall and rise again", with the Round Table as an example of how to do this in relation to Scions and Quests; and not a book about Arthur, Merlin, and the Knighrs, since this is Scion, not Pendragon. At least, I hope so.

[marin]

I imagine we might get rules for multiple versions of the Round Table. Indeed, though I can't seem to find it, I'm pretty sure one of the main rulebooks has a brief reference to multiple versions of the Round Table, with different versions affiliated with different pantheons. Or they may decide to go with what we see in the picture and have a multi-cultural Round Table.

Origin, in the Midrealms section. What you're remembering is that Arthur is claimed by multiple pantheons (the Tuatha, Theoi (courtesy of the idea Arthur was a Romano-British general) and Plant Don), and that people keep finding anachronistic artifacts associated with the Round Table.

Alternatively, the book will be about general Welsh myths and legends; the patheon and its members; and the general concept of the cycle of "rise and fall and rise again", with the Round Table as an example of how to do this in relation to Scions and Quests; and not a book about Arthur, Merlin, and the Knighrs, since this is Scion, not Pendragon. At least, I hope so.

We've got a Lovecraft book, but that didn't turn Scion into Call of Cthulhu. (And from what the writers have said, this is going to be bringing in some of the gonzo Arthurian stuff that Pendragon doesn't cover - it may be the iconic Arthurian RPG, but it has a particular take on the mythos.)

[TheWanderingJewels]

Arthurian legend: not an easy task to pull off to try to separate various legends and tales to try to get at the core of one set of beliefs. I wish you good luck with the research as that is a massive snarl in and of itself.

As to handling Abrahamic myths, I can understand not wanting to address them as that's a grenade with the pin pulled. I've had the question from several of my players about it and I've given them vague inferences and hints of the possibility that there might be something to it, but nothing definitive since they started off in Origin level and are working thier way up through Hero levels

But after their last adventure to a Hollow Earth Realm which everyone had a good time, they found a Roman spearhead that followers of a man with a bad mustache and some screwball ideas about Ayrans had been looking for. Of course, they do not know what to do with it, and I'm keeping things vague. But the Theoi want this thing bad. As does the Imperium (for those who have that set of Write ups)....

Anyway, I will be curious to see what comes of this

[Dataweaver]

Exactly. I don't expect Once and Future to address the “Christianization” of the Arthurian myths; but I can see it, for instance, addressing the impact that the Feudal system had on the legend of King Arthur.