Which New Pantheons do you want?

[atamajakki]

Next editions should have MORE than less pantheons.

Slavic pantheon is a must if we want to respect old Europe land.
Also Finnish and Baltic are fascinating.
I loved Persian Yazata. There should be Hindu Deva + Asuras and Persian Daeva (Devils) + Ahuras (angels) dualism. That's natural conflict: old gods vs new gods and demonizing old gods.
In hinduism Asuras are evil, but at beginning they were angelic - replaced with angelic deva. In persian mythos ahuras(asuras) are angelic and daevas are devils. I would love to see that conflict between two groups in one split pantheon in Scion game terms
There should be also something like African or Polynesian mythos.

Polynesian is on track for Demigod, though whether they go Maori, Hawaiian, or something else remains to be seen. 'African' is massively too broad (can you imagine a 'European' Pantheon?), but there's both the Egyptian (some people get weird about whether or not North Africa counts for some reason) and Yoruba Pantheons in the core book.

[Lunar]

Next editions should have MORE than less pantheons.

Slavic pantheon is a must if we want to respect old Europe land.
Also Finnish and Baltic are fascinating.
I loved Persian Yazata. There should be Hindu Deva + Asuras and Persian Daeva (Devils) + Ahuras (angels) dualism. That's natural conflict: old gods vs new gods and demonizing old gods.
In hinduism Asuras are evil, but at beginning they were angelic - replaced with angelic deva. In persian mythos ahuras(asuras) are angelic and daevas are devils. I would love to see that conflict between two groups in one split pantheon in Scion game terms
There should be also something like African or Polynesian mythos.

[glamourweaver]

So further research makes me agree that the Diyin Dine'e and the Kachinas shouldn't be competely Fatebound together, though strong attention should be given to their interrelationship, with Spider Grandmother being a Kachina primarily who is feared and respected by the Navajo none the less, etc.

That said, let's not pretend that the game isn't full of conflated Pantheons. The Manitou being a single Pantheon is itself lumping together the Ojibwe, Wabanaki, and Cree (and thus Nanabozho, Glooskap, and Wiskadjek).

[Ajax]

That's a hypothesis of the meaning of Mabinogion. We don't know what it means, but many also argue it means "the Divine Sons". And I agree with you on Irish and Welsh Myth, that's why I suggested they'd make the most sense and extension/sub pantheon ala the Orisha and the Loa.

As to the massive overlap in Navajo and Hopi legends, I don't have my literature with me at the moment, but I'd suggest looking at the ascent through the four previous worlds as the first major starting point off the top of my head.

We know that Pantheons that are at one point separate can subsume each other through cultural exchange. It is a thing that happens in-setting. Just ask the surviving Sabine gods like Janus, Fontus, or Juturna...

An entire post just got eaten, so I am disheartened to be answering this all over again, but:

The etymology of "Mabinogion" isn't so much at issue as the fact it shouldn't be used as the name of the pantheon. Or else call the Tuatha "the Labor". I don't agree the Welsh make any sense as a "sub-pantheon". At all. They have more than enough deity level figures to have a full-on pantheon that stands toe to toe with the Irish, Norse, or anyone else for that matter. Two full families of divinity. (And sure, a lot of them are dead, but that never seems to stop Celtic gods.) And, yes, there is some really decent crossover. Lugh and Lleu really ca'tn be the same dude, but Manawydan and Mannanan sure as hell seem like one guy. Mannanan being the older version after the slew of Manawydan's adventures.

If you are going to hold onto the "journey up to this world" you are still holding on to something that sets them up to be glomm-worthy with the Mesoamerican pantheons. There are substantive differences between those journeys. They don't always number the same number of worlds. The worlds journeyed aren't exactly the same. They don't end up in the same place. The various divine participants aren't the same.

The whole thing about that "subsumption" argument is that it doesn't hold water when there are some places it's used to justify certain actions and elsewhere it is used to justify others. We are getting a differentiated Gaulish pantheon but the Welsh is part of the Tuatha. The Etruscan gets sucked up into the Greek (effectively, since those are pretty much all the myths), but the Mayan are separete from the Aztec? There is a fundamental question here and, when answered one way, leads to less stories, less choices and less options (with some possibility of it leading in an invidious direction) and the other maximizes choice, allows for more stories (both to be used and to create) and more options.

[glamourweaver]

This is not even close to having something like the differences between the Welsh (which wouldn't be Mabinogion, that's a book title meaning, effectively, "stories about the youth... it would be like calling the figures of Christian/Abrahamic mythology "Bible") and Irish (Tuatha De) pantheons.

That's a hypothesis of the meaning of Mabinogion. We don't know what it means, but many also argue it means "the Divine Sons". And I agree with you on Irish and Welsh Myth, that's why I suggested they'd make the most sense and extension/sub pantheon ala the Orisha and the Loa.

As to the massive overlap in Navajo and Hopi legends, I don't have my literature with me at the moment, but I'd suggest looking at the ascent through the four previous worlds as the first major starting point off the top of my head.

We know that Pantheons that are at one point separate can subsume each other through cultural exchange. It is a thing that happens in-setting. Just ask the surviving Sabine gods like Janus, Fontus, or Juturna...

[Crying]

You are, quite understandably, wrong. Mushing all the different Australian mythologies together into one mass, or even confederacy is pretty much exactly the same as doing the same for North American pantheons. There are hundreds of distinct Aboriginal groups that have distinct areas of overlap, often on a regional basis, but the groups as different, if not more so, than, say the differences between Irish, Norse, Slavic, Graeco-Roman mythologies. And, yes, you can have multiple different Legend 12 figures, even if they are very similar in some ways. Unless, say, we can just say Zeus, Thor and Perun are really the same guy.

And that's not even touching on, say, the mythologies of the many many different New Guinea tribes, which have some similarities to the Melanesians, which aren't like the Polynesian, but are more like (but different enough to warrant their own treatment) than those like some parts of the Phillippines... And then there's Africa. And South America. And Central Asia. And Siberia.

The sources for lots of mythologies aren't readily available, particularly to a European-based audience, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. I have confidence the Scion team will try to make the necessary steps to reach out to people who are closer to the source material and who are willing to do the needed digging (as in "massive excavation") needed to bring to light and the game the mythologies of groups most people don't even know exist.

I am Australian and while I don't claim to be an expert on it, I'd like to think I know more about Aborigine beliefs than most people. I was not claiming that we should mush all of the different Australian pantheons together, though I can see how you might have gotten that from my post. I was responding to Datawaver's comment about having four Australian pantheons, though I forgot to quote them to make that clear.

I do believe that there are lots of distinct cultures and that glomming all their beliefs together is a horrible idea, but I'm not really sure that four seperate pantheons is possible. A combination of legends not being shared, legends being lost, legends being similar between different culture groups, legends being about 'dieties' who (in my opinion) don't qualify as Legend 12 and people making up legends to try and draw in tourists in some areas has led to Australian 'mythology' being incredibly difficult to research. As a result, I'm just not sure that more than one pantheon is possible. Maybe two if they bust their asses.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they could find enough Legend 12 'dieties' to form four pantheons. If they did, I would be very impressed and very happy.

[Ajax]

I don't claim to know all the different Aborigine beliefs, so I may very well be wrong about this, but... I just don't think that there are enough Legend 12 'dieties' in Australia to form multiple pantheons.

You are, quite understandably, wrong. Mushing all the different Australian mythologies together into one mass, or even confederacy is pretty much exactly the same as doing the same for North American pantheons. There are hundreds of distinct Aboriginal groups that have distinct areas of overlap, often on a regional basis, but the groups as different, if not more so, than, say the differences between Irish, Norse, Slavic, Graeco-Roman mythologies. And, yes, you can have multiple different Legend 12 figures, even if they are very similar in some ways. Unless, say, we can just say Zeus, Thor and Perun are really the same guy.

And that's not even touching on, say, the mythologies of the many many different New Guinea tribes, which have some similarities to the Melanesians, which aren't like the Polynesian, but are more like (but different enough to warrant their own treatment) than those like some parts of the Phillippines... And then there's Africa. And South America. And Central Asia. And Siberia.

The sources for lots of mythologies aren't readily available, particularly to a European-based audience, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. I have confidence the Scion team will try to make the necessary steps to reach out to people who are closer to the source material and who are willing to do the needed digging (as in "massive excavation") needed to bring to light and the game the mythologies of groups most people don't even know exist.

[Ajax]

Except for they have shared creation myth and a huge overlap of shared figures, to the point where you'd be redoing half the Pantheon.

I'm not saying ignore the separate cultural groups, I'm saying in this case it'd make sense to highlight Fatebinding and pantheon overlap across cultural groups.

Also for the Persian/Indian example - I am very interested to see how the game handles the Asura/Ahura vs Deva/Daeva issue. It would be completely valid to not draw up those figures vilified in one culture as distinct to them - and instead use cross-pantheon rivalry to explain who the Daeva "Indra" is (for example).

I need some sources on that, because everything I've ever seen, and I mean EVER, doesn't show them as having all that much in common as far as mythological figures or stories or myths. At least, insofar, as they are that much different than, say, from Aztec or Mayan. They are more distinct than Aztec is from Maya, if annything. In fact, there are uncanny similarities between Mayan and Pueblo myths that neither share overmuch with Navajo or Aztec. Unless you are willing to glom together all four, I can't see you putting those two together. (Or even worse, just sum all North American mythology into one undifferentiated mass.... kinda like my old chestnut of dropping all distinctions between pantheons of Indo-European origin.) And those are four very VERY different cultures in pretty much every way that cultures can be different - religious practices, kinship and marriage, power distribution, exchange mechanisms, language groups, historical origin, etc. This is not even close to having something like the differences between the Welsh (which wouldn't be Mabinogion, that's a book title meaning, effectively, "stories about the youth... it would be like calling the figures of Christian/Abrahamic mythology "Bible") and Irish (Tuatha De) pantheons.

For one sub-section of one Scion cycle I ran awhile ago, I had no problem generating a Pueblo pantheon, PSP included, and differentiated it from Navajo with a few key figures from the latter's myths, the way that the detailed/mentioned pantheons have been to date (a la Irish/Welsh, Aztec/Mayan, etc.)

I'm not buying a Fatebinding argument. Unless, say. you are willing to similarly fuse the Persian and Hindu mythos and have them Fatebound together as two interlocking opposing pantheons (our angels vs. your demons), even though the analogy isn't perfect as the Navajo and Pueblo mythologies don't depict the deities of one as the "opposition" to another... say, like having Masauwu and Hahti Wuhti appearing as inverse images to the Navajo (e.g. a scary-er fire/war guy and not so nice old woman spider woman). And I can't find any myths among the Navajo that duplicate the Pahana myth (though Quetzalcoatl mirrors it quite nicely). They both have a Hero Twin's like set of myths, but it's not that much different from the Mayan set-up and, in some ways, from the Aztec Quetzalcoatl

[Crying]

I don't claim to know all the different Aborigine beliefs, so I may very well be wrong about this, but... I just don't think that there are enough Legend 12 'dieties' in Australia to form multiple pantheons.

[marin]

Possibly relevant in regards to an Australian pantheon is that Neall's mentioned confederate pantheons, formed by an alliance of pantheons.

[glamourweaver]

There truly is an embarrassment of riches to choose from. With that in mind, I'd like to see the starting selection (that is, Hero+ Demigod+God) hit at least four distinct Pantheons per continent, excluding Antarctica and treating the Pacific Ocean as a continent for this purpose. It may not be possible (does Australia have enough distinct indigenous cultures to support four Pantheons?); But I'd like see them try.

Enough cultures? Yes. Enough distinct legend systems shared with outsiders to draw on is a very different story.

[glamourweaver]

"Native Australian" Pantheon is as over-inclusive lumping together every different North American culture into one pantheon.

Having the Navajo and Pueblo Nations have one pantheon would be fairy inappropriate. It would be more accurate to, say, glom together the Persian and Indian pantheons and saying, "Well, they're really just one pantheon tied together by a shared history". At least he Asuras & Yazata, the Devas & Divs have some actual cultural and historical relationship.

Except for they have shared creation myth and a huge overlap of shared figures, to the point where you'd be redoing half the Pantheon.

I'm not saying ignore the separate cultural groups, I'm saying in this case it'd make sense to highlight Fatebinding and pantheon overlap across cultural groups.

Also for the Persian/Indian example - I am very interested to see how the game handles the Asura/Ahura vs Deva/Daeva issue. It would be completely valid to not draw up those figures vilified in one culture as distinct to them - and instead use cross-pantheon rivalry to explain who the Daeva "Indra" is (for example).

[Dataweaver]

There truly is an embarrassment of riches to choose from. With that in mind, I'd like to see the starting selection (that is, Hero+ Demigod+God) hit at least four distinct Pantheons per continent, excluding Antarctica and treating the Pacific Ocean as a continent for this purpose. It may not be possible (does Australia have enough distinct indigenous cultures to support four Pantheons?); But I'd like see them try.

[Ajax]

"Native Australian" Pantheon is as over-inclusive lumping together every different North American culture into one pantheon.

Having the Navajo and Pueblo Nations have one pantheon would be fairy inappropriate. It would be more accurate to, say, glom together the Persian and Indian pantheons and saying, "Well, they're really just one pantheon tied together by a shared history". At least he Asuras & Yazata, the Devas & Divs have some actual cultural and historical relationship.

[glamourweaver]

After some of my own research I don't think the Diwata (Filipine Gods) make sense as part of the Atua, save purely as a political alliance (i.e. Separate Virtues, Pantheon Purview, metaphysical realms, etc). They have a very distinct culture and mythology with little overlap. If anything the Pantheon they are closest to overlapping with are the Deva.