Which New Pantheons do you want?

[Shadowflame]

Sure he is, it's just a different lightning bolt and fake noses

In all seriousness, I would love to see rules for different aspects of gods (here used to say different takes on them), so I could have the PCs meet both Lugh and Lleu in a campaign. Possibly guidelines for when it's just going under different names (Odin/Wodin) and when it is a different aspect (Zeus/Jupiter). This should allow one pantheon to cover two or three closely related ones, stopping pantheon bloat.

Yeah...definitely need to see how the rules go.

Sticking points:
Gods have always existed independently of culture and people. (Bothersome)
Interpretatio could easily have it as "one world one pantheon." Or at the very least "one geographical region one pantheon."

I think this is where I'm suppose to mention North America...

[Anteros]

I'd like to see the Orishas from Yoruba mythology, the Finnish pantheon, the Korean gods, and the Hawaiian gods.

[TwoDSix]

...Actually, this might be one for Neall. We know that Zeus, Jupiter, and Tinia are different in how they present, but they're fundamentally the same god, who's mantling different dots of Legend.

What's not clear is how that impacts the pantheons. Is it something along the lines of the pantheons parallelling the gods, so you've got the same basic group of gods in three distinct configurations (with gods like Mithra only part of the Roman configuration)?


(What should be noted is that this only goes so far, when you can see a close family relation. Zeus, Jupiter and Tinia are all the same god, but Zeus, Perun, and Indra are not. Scion isn't suddenly going to become a game where the same gods make up every pantheon under different guises.)

Sure he is, it's just a different lightning bolt and fake noses

In all seriousness, I would love to see rules for different aspects of gods (here used to say different takes on them), so I could have the PCs meet both Lugh and Lleu in a campaign. Possibly guidelines for when it's just going under different names (Odin/Wodin) and when it is a different aspect (Zeus/Jupiter). This should allow one pantheon to cover two or three closely related ones, stopping pantheon bloat.

[marin]

I would like to see a Roman Pantheon.

I know a lot of people would say "There's already the Greek one, they're the same thing". No, they're not.

...Actually, this might be one for Neall. We know that Zeus, Jupiter, and Tinia are different in how they present, but they're fundamentally the same god, who's mantling different dots of Legend.

What's not clear is how that impacts the pantheons. Is it something along the lines of the pantheons parallelling the gods, so you've got the same basic group of gods in three distinct configurations (with gods like Mithra only part of the Roman configuration)?


(What should be noted is that this only goes so far, when you can see a close family relation. Zeus, Jupiter and Tinia are all the same god, but Zeus, Perun, and Indra are not. Scion isn't suddenly going to become a game where the same gods make up every pantheon under different guises.)

[wulf]

I would like to see a Roman Pantheon.

I know a lot of people would say "There's already the Greek one, they're the same thing". No, they're not.

[TwoDSix]

You can do a Canaanite pantheon and get all the goodness of Levant religion in a way consistent with how Scion has handled other pantheons without even mentioning Yahweh. He was a peculiarly Hebrew deity and/or he was heavily syncretized with El. El has his own set of issues for those who want to be offended, but he is definitely identified with the larger Canaanite pantheon explicitly in the myths we do have and Yahweh, per se, doesn't appear in those myths (i.e. the Baal Cycle, etc.). (Unless you buy the very very tenuous identification between Yahweh and Yaam, which is kinda hard to do for me.... since Yahweh definitely is portrayed as a dragon-killer type in the Old Testament.... even explicitly says so in Job and it gets more than a nod in a couple of Psalms and Yaam is pretty much a sea dragon).

In fact, there is very little about Yahweh as a member or associate of the pantheon even in the bits and pieces you can draw from archaeology - a candle stand here that depicts El and Asherah and possible Yahweh (by his absence), a bit of graffitti in the Sinai with Baal, Yahweh and Asherhah all depicted and noted as such with little "name tags", etc. He would probably rate about as much room in a description of the Canaanite pantheon as, say, Janus, Fevrus, etc. do with a Graeco-Roman pantheon, e.g. a deity of a people who are strongly associated with the pantheon (Latin/Romans) in question, but not one that was a part of the larger-scale and better known core group. The Hebrews definitely were worshiping Asherah, Baal, etc. (which occasioned much gnashing of teeth and fury) but the other Canaanites weren't worshiping him.

You could just avoid the whole issue altogether by not ever using "yahweh" or just tack it on as "d.b.a" on El and be done with it as far as matters Canaanite go. I'd definitely go for option 1.

I would love to see a Canaanite pantheon. Hands down. There are some really good stories that aren't super hard to track down that tell myths that can really be associated with the names of the deities in question. It's more than we have for, say, the Slavic pantheon, where it's a sad mash of bits and pieces with a lot of the juicier bits actually sucked up into later Russian fairy tales all layered over with a thick frosting of pure romanticized fiction.

Oh, and you can also kill two birds with one stone and make it a Canaanite/Phoenician pantheon as well. Very similar to the Graeco-Roman pantheon covering both cultures fairly effectively. Or else end up with the same issues you have trying to pry those two apart. After all, the "-bal" in Hannibal (and Hasdrubal) IS Baal...

Hmm... If they do such the pantheon as a kickstarter reward, I'd gladly survive on bread alone to contribute to the KS do they except pound sterling?

[Gnomish American]

Bring it! Take my money please!

I've been asking them to do that for months. They're not listening. smh

[Neall]

I don't think any reasonable person expects a doctoral thesis in cultural studies or every single mythological story ever. That said, Much of what actually goes into the book affects the default stance of how people play and interpret the game. A sidebar suggesting that the game writeups are just a taste and that people who want more info can read the actual real world stories would be greatly helpful.

The plan is to have a reading list for each pantheon alongside a more general one.

Its probably unfair to assume you guys are going to screw up and be offensive to other religions and cultures and even flatout factually incorrect, but im sure you can see why people are concerned considering how the first book came out. Things like the Aztecs being treated canonically as a strange Religion of Evil where being an Aztec Traditionalist (A choice supported by the game mechanics even) is "Bad" or completely inaccurate things like Thor being good friends with the Dwarves despite mythologically despising them to the point of casual murder.

Poor Alvíss!

I will say that if we change things from the myths, I'd vastly prefer it to be because the game needs it to be changed rather than because the research wasn't done.

EDIT: Put another way, we care more about respect and authenticity for the myths than we do about strict adherence to accuracy.

I would suggest that if the writers don't understand the traditions/myths of a culture then you A) Find someone who does, or B) Not include them.

I won't disagree.

[Ajax]

You can do a Canaanite pantheon and get all the goodness of Levant religion in a way consistent with how Scion has handled other pantheons without even mentioning Yahweh. He was a peculiarly Hebrew deity and/or he was heavily syncretized with El. El has his own set of issues for those who want to be offended, but he is definitely identified with the larger Canaanite pantheon explicitly in the myths we do have and Yahweh, per se, doesn't appear in those myths (i.e. the Baal Cycle, etc.). (Unless you buy the very very tenuous identification between Yahweh and Yaam, which is kinda hard to do for me.... since Yahweh definitely is portrayed as a dragon-killer type in the Old Testament.... even explicitly says so in Job and it gets more than a nod in a couple of Psalms and Yaam is pretty much a sea dragon).

In fact, there is very little about Yahweh as a member or associate of the pantheon even in the bits and pieces you can draw from archaeology - a candle stand here that depicts El and Asherah and possible Yahweh (by his absence), a bit of graffitti in the Sinai with Baal, Yahweh and Asherhah all depicted and noted as such with little "name tags", etc. He would probably rate about as much room in a description of the Canaanite pantheon as, say, Janus, Fevrus, etc. do with a Graeco-Roman pantheon, e.g. a deity of a people who are strongly associated with the pantheon (Latin/Romans) in question, but not one that was a part of the larger-scale and better known core group. The Hebrews definitely were worshiping Asherah, Baal, etc. (which occasioned much gnashing of teeth and fury) but the other Canaanites weren't worshiping him.

You could just avoid the whole issue altogether by not ever using "yahweh" or just tack it on as "d.b.a" on El and be done with it as far as matters Canaanite go. I'd definitely go for option 1.

I would love to see a Canaanite pantheon. Hands down. There are some really good stories that aren't super hard to track down that tell myths that can really be associated with the names of the deities in question. It's more than we have for, say, the Slavic pantheon, where it's a sad mash of bits and pieces with a lot of the juicier bits actually sucked up into later Russian fairy tales all layered over with a thick frosting of pure romanticized fiction.

Oh, and you can also kill two birds with one stone and make it a Canaanite/Phoenician pantheon as well. Very similar to the Graeco-Roman pantheon covering both cultures fairly effectively. Or else end up with the same issues you have trying to pry those two apart. After all, the "-bal" in Hannibal (and Hasdrubal) IS Baal...

[Ajax]

r completely inaccurate things like Thor being good friends with the Dwarves despite mythologically despising them to the point of casual murder.

Freyr - "WHY did you smash that dwarf's head with your massive giant-killing hammer at your brother's funeral?"

Thor - "He was standing in front of me... His head was in the way...."

Freyr - "He was a DWARF.... that's... just.... not possible."

Thor - "Right. He was a dwarf. His head was in the way of my hammer."

[Úlfhéðnar]

Right.

Something important to actually mention is that while we strive to be respectful and accurate in Scion Second Edition, we're not making a scholarly book on mythology. To paraphrase something I wrote before:



And to add to that: we want to treat real-world pantheons, religions, and cultures with the utmost respect and as much accuracy as we can swing. However, we're also treating them through the lens of fiction - and moreover, a lens of fiction where they're all true to some degree or another. It's a work of fiction and a work of game material - nothing more, nothing less.

I don't think any reasonable person expects a doctoral thesis in cultural studies or every single mythological story ever. That said, Much of what actually goes into the book affects the default stance of how people play and interpret the game. A sidebar suggesting that the game writeups are just a taste and that people who want more info can read the actual real world stories would be greatly helpful.

Its probably unfair to assume you guys are going to screw up and be offensive to other religions and cultures and even flatout factually incorrect, but im sure you can see why people are concerned considering how the first book came out. Things like the Aztecs being treated canonically as a strange Religion of Evil where being an Aztec Traditionalist (A choice supported by the game mechanics even) is "Bad" or completely inaccurate things like Thor being good friends with the Dwarves despite mythologically despising them to the point of casual murder.

I would suggest that if the writers don't understand the traditions/myths of a culture then you A) Find someone who does, or B) Not include them.

[Neall]

That article is a perfect example of what not to do. Scion isn't about “a rational, secular historical perspective”, nor is it about trying to establish the truth behind myths and legends; it’s about a world where myths and legends are real. So whatever you think is true about the real-world origins of Christianity is largely irrelevant to Scion’s handling of the subject — which in turn is only relevant to this thread to the extent that it informs the viability or lack thereof of a Canaanite Pantheon.

Right.

Something important to actually mention is that while we strive to be respectful and accurate in Scion Second Edition, we're not making a scholarly book on mythology. To paraphrase something I wrote before:

I know you've got a personal stake in this, so take my reassurance that we've done our homework on American pantheons of all stripes and locales, North and South. When we say the Aztec pantheon is returning for the Hero core, we do mean the actual Aztecs, not a less diverse Mesoamerican one. If Huracan doesn't like an Aztec Scion, it's because he thinks Mexico City doesn't deserve the title of tollan and is sore about Chichen Itza (that is an off-the-cuff example; I'm not writing those pantheons). Keep in mind, though, that our foremost goal is a playable and enjoyable mythological game allowing players to embody the myths of legend, wear divine mantles of succession and create their own myths in the vein of old in the modern day whilst being a badass, not arguing about who's God K and who isn't. Accuracy and respect are still very, very high priorities. But if we're looking at Lugh of the Tuatha de Dannen and see the Welsh Lleu Llaw Gyffes and Lugus of the Gauls, there's a judgment call to be made.

And to add to that: we want to treat real-world pantheons, religions, and cultures with the utmost respect and as much accuracy as we can swing. However, we're also treating them through the lens of fiction - and moreover, a lens of fiction where they're all true to some degree or another. It's a work of fiction and a work of game material - nothing more, nothing less.

[Dataweaver]

That article is a perfect example of what not to do. Scion isn't about “a rational, secular historical perspective”, nor is it about trying to establish the truth behind myths and legends; it’s about a world where myths and legends are real. So whatever you think is true about the real-world origins of Christianity is largely irrelevant to Scion’s handling of the subject — which in turn is only relevant to this thread to the extent that it informs the viability or lack thereof of a Canaanite Pantheon. Unless and until someone suggests including an Abrahamic pantheon (which, thus far, nobody has), it seems to me that more in-depth discussion of how to handle such a thing belongs in the Abrahamic Pantheon thread.

Heck, even if someone does suggest such a thing, I think the appropriate response is to point to that thread and be done with it: at this point, I can think of almost nothing on the topic that needs to be said that hasn't already been said.

[Shadowflame]

This was an old essay I posted before. It remains relevant I believe.

[ZealousChristian24]

Personally, I wouldn't include him at all, both for out-of-game reasons(he's the most likely to slip into the outright offensive), and the more important in-game reasons, that is, I'm fairly certain he'd end up being slapped with Fatebonds so hard, his grand-Scions would feel it.