Which New Pantheons do you want?

[Wannabe Demon Lord]

Thanks Svarogg!

I'd heard of Nats before, but I was under the impression that they were more fey than gods. I suppose that's probably the post-Buddhist interpretation of them. I'll add them to the list.

[glamourweaver]

So besides the dead Pantheons (Alihah, Nemetondevos, Shiunesh...) and sibling-Pantheons that share Virtues and PSP with other established Pantheons (Loa, Plant Don, Di Indigetes...), i’ve come up with a list of the 18 biggest power players other than the core 10 -

Anunna (Mesopotamian)
Anga (Guarani)
Apu (Inca)
Atua (Polynesian)
Bogovi (Slavic Russian)
Diwata (Filipino, primarily through Tagalog lens)
Diyin Dine’e (Apachean, primarily through Navajo lens)
Elohim (Canaanite/Phoenician)
Inue (Inuit)
Jumalat (Finnish)
Kachina (Puebloan, primarily through Hopi lens)
K’uh (Mayan)
Milungu (Nyanga)
Palas (Vajrayana)
Tjukuritja (Anangu)
Tngri (Mongol/Siberian)
Wakanpi (Siouxan, primarily through Lakota lens)
Yazata (Persian)

[Dataweaver]

EDIT: never mind.

[Watcher]

So besides the dead Pantheons (Alihah, Nemetondevos, Shiunesh...) and sibling-Pantheons that share Virtues and PSP with other established Pantheons (Loa, Plant Don, Di Indigetes...), i’ve come up with a list of the 18 biggest power players other than the core 10 -

Have the Plant Don been confirmed to use the Irish Virtues and PsP? There are zero Geasa in the Welsh tradition, and they're rather different in the Virtue situation, way more chill than the Tuatha. I expect they'll not be a Sub-Pantheon, they're super different, just happen to share a few entities.

(They also have concepts that would make totally decent PsPs that would make them really unique and fun to play. The Tynghedau are the most interesting)

[glamourweaver]

How do you interpret Tynghedau differently than Geasa?

They’re taboos most often placed on male figures by female figures, that empower the hero as long as it’s upheld, but doom them if they’re violated.

[Watcher]

How do you interpret Tynged differently than Geasa?

Oh, they're fundamentally different things. Here, I'll give a breakdown.

A Geasa is a (probably) sacred taboo imposed upon someone who interacts with the Otherworld as a primary function of their being or profession. So, Heroes (capital H, it's a job you can be trained for) and Kings are the major people who would have Geasa imposed upon them something like a limiter, or a check upon their power. All Scions due to having an intimate connection with the Otherworld would likely have Geasa even if they are not Heroes, or Kings.

Originally, the Geasa are all prohibitions. CuChulain can't eat dog flesh, or refuse hospitality offered to him. Lugh couldn't refuse the third request someone made of him. Later, the Geasa also start to include compulsions. Conare's requirement to always pass fair judgement is an example of this. If you break your Geasa, you are going to die, and they can't be changed. They are, however, nothing at all to do with Fate. They are not curses, they are not Fates, they are totally different things. They are checks to the power of the powerful, and especially humans who interact with the Otherworld. You don't benefit from a Geasa, it's something imposed upon you since you are powerful. You don't have any power because of your Geasa, you have Geasa since you're powerful and Otherworldly.

The Tynged are on the other hand fundamentally Fates, and can be really-really good things. Llew has our best examples of them. His mother imposes a bunch of limitations upon him, that he shall have no name least she name him, have no arms least she arm him, and that he will have no human wife. These are Fates imposed upon Llew, but they are importantly all conditional, they are a tool of the narrative to highlight cunning, and the capacity to twist and manipulate wording. These Tynged are all negative, intended to be curses put upon Llew since his mum doesn't like him since he is evidence that she isn't a virgin. (Culhwch also has a good example of a Tynged)

However, there are also really awesome Tynged. Llew has a bullshit complicated series of protections on him, but they all have exceptions. He can be killed neither when clothed, nor when naked. So, he can only be killed when wrapped in a net. He can't be inside or outside, so, under a wall-less structure. He can't be killed with a legal weapon, so a spear forged only on Sunday (when you are not supposed to be working due to the Sabbath) can strike him down.

A Tynged is far more like the Norse concept of Wyrd, except they all have a built in Conditional Clause. Where the Norse might have, "You Will Die At X Point," the Welsh will have, "You Will Not Die Unless Very-Odd-Poetic-Clause," and can have a whole series of these. They are Curses, and Blessings for someone. They don't have anything to do with a connection to the Otherworld, and don't serve as protections against the powers of the powerful. They way they are very different from Wyrd however is that even if the Conditions are filled, that doesn't mean that the being is going to die. It just means they are now vulnerable. Llew is struck with all of his Tynged worked around, but he survives the horrific blow. It isn't a Pre-Deterministic Fate system, but a Clause Based Fate system.

So, in simple: Geasa are Prohibition or Compulsion Taboos that have zero benefit to the person with them since they are checks to their Otherworldly Power. Tynghedau (pl) are Fates that are all Conditional, capable of being really annoying curses, as well as really powerful blessings on someone. Where Geasa are chains and manacles, Tynghedau are curses and blessings. You would really rather not have Geasa, but Tynghedau can be pretty awesome and beneficial.

Even simpler: Geasa are Taboos, Tynghedau are Conditional Fate Clauses. Totally different things, I don't think you couldn't replicate a Tynghedau with a Geasa without compromising either concept heavily.

They’re taboos most often placed on male figures by female figures, that empower the hero as long as it’s upheld, but doom them if they’re violated.

Geasa in no way empower an individual, and are not regarded as being in any way related to the fate of an individual. Tynghedau are regarded culturally as a Fate-Based system, and are not considered Taboos at all. Violating a Tynghedau doesn't mean you are doomed, but that you are vulnerable, and only if the Tynghedau placed upon you is a protective clause. They can also be used to curse, or challenge an individual such as, "You shall marry no woman least she is the daughter of Ysbaddaden Bencawr."

Absolutely different things. Even within the mechanical system of Scion as a Tabletop game, they would be interacting with different parts of the game. The Tynghedau would interact with the Fate system, where as the Geasa are just taboos a character has.

Also: Geasa are not always imposed by women. By sheer numbers, I think the person who has given the most Geasa out is the King of the Birds, a man, who gives nine out to a single person. Who gives CuChulain's Geasa is never stated, neither are Lugh's. I think only one woman ever imposes a Geas upon someone, and she only imposes one.

[glamourweaver]

Narratively geasa do empower even if it’s not explicit. There was zero narrative chance of Chuculaine could be killed UNTIL the Chekhov’s gun of His Geas went off anymore than Lleu Llaw Gyfus could be killed outside the circumstance described by his Tynget. Fate is narrative in Scion and geasa are narrative shields (with explicit weak points).

If it’s not Fate that assures Chuchulain’s doom after he eats dog, then what is it?

I think we can assume the Tuatha PSP is not going to be “I invested in this so I have a major restriction that can kill me, but no upside.”

[Watcher]

Narratively geasa do empower even if it’s not explicit. There was zero narrative chance of Chuculaine could be killed UNTIL the Chekhov’s gun of His Geas went off anymore than Lleu Llaw Gyfus could be killed outside the circumstance described by his Tynget. Fate is narrative in Scion and geasa are narrative shields (with explicit weak points).

If it’s not Fate that assures Chuchulain’s doom after he eats dog, then what is it?

I think we can assume the Tuatha PSP is not going to be “I invested in this so I have a major restriction that can kill me, but no upside.”

I don't believe there is any textual evidence in support of this Glamorweaver. While, yes, it is unlikely that CuChulain or Conare were going to die without violating their Geasa, Geasa are not "You will not die unless XYZ" clauses, it is simply a function of the narrative that they appear so. If CuChulain wasn't going to die unless he violated his Geasa, than several other sections of other myths from the Ulster cycle don't make any sense. Geasa are in no way protective, that's not how they work.

In Fled Bricrenn, we are greeted with Fear, Son of Terror (actually just Cu Roi) who plays the Proto-Green Knight by challenging the three feuding Heroes of Ulster to cut off his head, and allow him to return the blow the next day. This functions as a test of courage, challenged by Uath mac Imomain, the three warriors are presented with fear of fear itself. The three warriors are put up against a perfectly lethal challenge, and all but CuChulain fall to their fear. CuChulain, being a rage-fueled fifteen year old boy, decides he prefers Death than not being recognized as the greatest of the Ulster Heroes, and doesn't flee when it is his turn to have a blow struck on him. (Just like The Green Knight, Uath mac Imomain gently bops CuChulain with the axe) The point of this narrative is destroyed if Geasa were believed to protect the Hero who has them. The point of the story is that CuChulain was entirely willing to die to prove a point and win an argument (he is really teenager) and if his Geasa would protect him, there would be no point to this. Both In-Character, CuChulain wouldn't be frightened, and out of character, to the audience, CuChulain's feat isn't one of bravery since they would know his Geasa would protect him.

In the Tain, there are several instances where CuChulain hasn't violated his Geasa, but is in serious danger of dying. When Lugh shows up and knocks him the fuck out to give him a chance to heal and not die then and there, and in his clash with his foster-brother/possible lover Fer Dia where he is bothering to be treated by physicians to heal his wounds. If his Geasa were serving as a protective element, than Lugh of all people would know, and wouldn't be bothering to go to all this trouble to save his son. If CuChulain knew his Geasa were protecting him, he wouldn't have a need for his physicians to keep healing him from the brutal damage inflicted by Fer Dia. In fact, if he thought he couldn't die from those wounds, than he would gain more honor and dishonor his enemies by not being healed. We can see this by the fact that CuChulain is very sure to make sure Fer Dia is also given medical treatment by his doctors so no one can dishonor him by saying that he had better medical treatment.

In the Death of CuChulain, we actually see how breaking a Geasa works. CuChulain is met on the road by the women roasting a dog, and offer him some of the meat on a spit. CuChulain panics, feins eating it, and shoves the spit under his leg. The moment he does this, he broke his Geasa, and the side of his body where he hid the spit of meat becomes frail, and weakened, losing all of his might, and speed. The violation of the Geasa doesn't Fate CuChulain to die, that would be discussed in an entirely different way in the text. Instead, we see that the breaking of the Geasa strikes CuChulain low, leaving him to die. It isn't a Fate thing, it's an Otherworld thing. He isn't Fated to die, he is just struck low, and thus will die.

And, I would expect the Tuatha PsP wouldn't be something so negative. It is very easy to incorporate Geasa into Scion as a PsP. You force anyone who has the PsP to take a Geas, but then they get a host of Excellencies, and Talents, the features of the Hero and the King (as well as Otherworldly entities). CuChulain knows the secret Talent of the Gae Bolga, the Heroic Salmon Leap, the Apple Feat, the Cat Step, the Thunder Feat, etc. He also has a series of excellent skills, not only in combat, but fields of culture, such as judgement and advising. It's really a very interesting system the notion of Excellencies, and Talents. You don't get these powers because you have a Geas, you have the Geas because you have these powers. We made a system like this for Scion 2.0's version of the Irish PsP though it is a bit outdated now and I'd really like to have the time to go in and revise it again.

But, right, back to the original point. Geasa are not Fate effects, they are not regarded as so in the texts, or by the culture that created them. While, on the other hand, the Welsh Tynghedau are explicitly regarded as being Fated things. Furthermore, Geasa are in no way protective, if they were, the majority of the Ulster Cycle would be fundamentally changed in meaning.

Edit: Thought of someone who has a Geas but doesn't break it before they die. Lugh is mentioned as having a Geasa about not being able to refuse the third request a person gives him, but he is killed by Mac Cuill, Mac Cecht, and Mac Greine without him breaking his Geasa.

[glamourweaver]

Ok, I'm convinced, I'll add the Plant Don to the list as a separate Pantheon rather than a sibling one with the same PSP. So that's 29 total that I have a good conceptual grasp on (not counting the Loa, Di Indigetes, Alihah, Nemetondevos, and Shiunesh).

[Penguinbowler]

I would like Hawaiian out of our polynesian pantheons if we need to get one. Kane, Ku, Lono, and Kanaloa are the 4 big gods (Like Zeus, Posiedon and Hades) being the gods of jungles, war, peace and oceans with kane doubling as a creator god, and, despite not being the most powerful or most... nice, she does have quite possibly the most myths about her, it's PELE! She is an extremely temperamental volcano goddess who tends to act a bit rash... she makes the theoi look like the most kind and forgiving pantheon, though she generally does feel bad about it in the end. She razed her sisters house down because she thought she stole the man she wanted, fought then married the god of boars, and decided to fight the goddess of snow because she was a better sledder. She lost the fight with the snow goddess, and lost the northern end of hawai'i to her.

[Astromancer]

Do the Hawaiian pantheon, the WWII setting already introduced them, but introduce important non Hawaiian deities as associates and allow them to be played as if they were of the same pantheon.

[glamourweaver]

I am interested to see how the Loa and Orisha handle the doubling of the bulk of their deities, because that can be a guide on how to handle the huge overlap between the deities with culturally distinct Mantles between the Maori and Hawaiian Pantheons, or whether it would be better to handle the huge overlap in more of a Greco-Roman model of just doing the one Pantheon with multiple Mantles on the Gods (as in this case the gods are linguistically even closer related than most of the Greek and Roman equivalents).

[Wannabe Demon Lord]

This is my master list of pantheons I hope to one day see in the game, 70 in total:

Egyptian- Netjer
Greek- Theoi
Norse- Aesir
Aztec- Teotl
Japanese- Kami
Yoruba- Orisha
Irish- Tuatha De Danann
Chinese- Shen
Hindu- Deva
Algonquin- Manitou
Persian- Yazata
Gaulish- Nementodevos
Polynesian- Atua
Slavic- Bogovi
Mesopotamian- Anunna
Navajo- Diyin Dine'e
Mayan- K'uh
Inca- Apu
Canaanite- Elohim
Roman- Dei
Arabic- Alihah
Inuit- Inue
Lakota- Wakanpi
Nyanga- Milungu*
Guarani- Anga
Hopi- Kachina
Finnish- Jumalat
Buddhist- Palas
Mongolian- Tanrilar
Australian Aboriginal- Tjukuritja**
Tagalog- Diwata
Shiunesh- Hittite
Igbo- Alusi
Iroqouios- Orenda
Korean- Sinduel
Welsh- Plant Don
Buganda- Balubaale*
Haida- Sga'na Qeda's
Burmese- Nat
Ashanti- Abosom
Baltic- Dievai
Etruscan- Aisar
Vietnamese- Than
Zulu- Onukulunkulu*
Mapuche- Ngen
Indonesian- Hyangs**
Taino- Zemis
San- ????
Mbuti- Uungu***
Circassian- Xucar
Basque- Jainko
Cherokee- Nunne'hi
Bunyoro- ????*
Muisca- ????
Choctaw- Shilombish
Malagasy- Maha-Andriamnitra
Bicolano- Anitos
Tibetan- Lha
Muscogee- Hesaketvmese
Ainu- Kamuy
Sami- Ipmil
Siberian- Vairgit**
Nubian- Yakush
Thracian- Disa
Fijian- Kalou
Congolese- Nkisi*
Tupari-????
Manchu- Enduri
Dahomey- Vodun

*Could potentially all be combined together into a Bantu mega-pantheon
**Too broad, I know
***I'm concerned that enough information doesn't exist, but too interesting not to include.

[glamourweaver]

I'm still not convinced on the name "Narts". While the heroes the term refers to were divine in nature (they were Scions) the term as far as I can find does not seem to encompass the full blown divinities like Uastyrdzhi, Satana, Donbettyr, etc. It would be like calling the whole Indian pantheon "Pandavas" instead of "Devas".

If I could figure out the proper spelling of the plural of the Lezgin word "xucar", I'd use that as the general name of the Pantheon.

[Wannabe Demon Lord]

Fair enough. To be honest, they're not a pantheon I'm super familiar with; most of my knowledge of them stems from Demonchilde's 1e write-up of a few of them. And while Demonchilde's work is interesting, it's not super reliable, accuracy wise. I'm inclined to just refer to them as the Xucar until someone stumbles upon a proper plural. They're cool though; I think they're the best pantheon for the Caucasus, better than the Armenian for our purposes because they have a huge amount of overlap with the Yazatas.