Demon: The Fallen / Mummy 20th Anniversary Edition??

[loomer]

I'm hopeful that the 2nd Inquisition will focus on **all** supernatural beings, and not just on vampires. I'm also hopeful that the final version of 5th Edition will actually use blood pools, won't make Disciplines entirely dependent upon what kind of human you're eating, and that they'll de-LARP the Disciplines and give us something closer to what V20 had.

With regard to My supposedly misreading the bit about Charon, or "making assumptions", no. Developer chats AFTER THE FACT change nothing. When I was reading in the book, Charon was said to be a demon, with NO mention of another Charon, who was a Wraith. I'm not calling the developer a liar, but I am saying that it's not misreading or making assumptions when you look at what text says in a book and take it at face value.

Two beings can share names. How did you manage to ignore the very well attested origins of Charon was a mortal man of Mycenae to make that leap? Did you also decide that the Promethean movement was a bunch of mage-familiars, that Prince Balthazar and Thomas Ewell were the same person, or that the Lamia ghoul Lilith was the same as the One and Only Dark Mother?

[Eldagusto]

I'm hopeful that the 2nd Inquisition will focus on **all** supernatural beings, and not just on vampires. I'm also hopeful that the final version of 5th Edition will actually use blood pools, won't make Disciplines entirely dependent upon what kind of human you're eating, and that they'll de-LARP the Disciplines and give us something closer to what V20 had.

With regard to My supposedly misreading the bit about Charon, or "making assumptions", no. Developer chats AFTER THE FACT change nothing. When I was reading in the book, Charon was said to be a demon, with NO mention of another Charon, who was a Wraith. I'm not calling the developer a liar, but I am saying that it's not misreading or making assumptions when you look at what text says in a book and take it at face value.

...what do you mean Developer clarification doesn't matter that is silly.

And the Demon Book talks about super ancient Prehistory... you know before the Wraith Charon was even born much less died, so there was only one Charon then. And you can't just say no as a counter argument, that is laughably nonsensical. Demon gives the story of the First Charon, they also leave a lot of mystery. And that is it. It would also make very little sense if Charon in Wraith was the original Demon Charon, I mean he has a Pasiphae for Godsake, and he looked to the Lady of Fate, Eve, as more a mentor which would be weird for Demon Charon unless he suffers from lots of Amnesia. And Charon seems more to display Wraith Powers rather then Demon Lores.

[ToreadorGentleman]

Yeah I will be disappointed if we don't get Kindred of the East, Mummy, and Demon! And to a lesser extent hunter.

Kindred of the east is frickin' underrated, at least here in italy

[Lord Vil]

I'm hopeful that the 2nd Inquisition will focus on **all** supernatural beings, and not just on vampires. I'm also hopeful that the final version of 5th Edition will actually use blood pools, won't make Disciplines entirely dependent upon what kind of human you're eating, and that they'll de-LARP the Disciplines and give us something closer to what V20 had.

With regard to My supposedly misreading the bit about Charon, or "making assumptions", no. Developer chats AFTER THE FACT change nothing. When I was reading in the book, Charon was said to be a demon, with NO mention of another Charon, who was a Wraith. I'm not calling the developer a liar, but I am saying that it's not misreading or making assumptions when you look at what text says in a book and take it at face value.

[Ambrosia]

Granted, I'm not sure how everyone else has or would handle this information. Some may integrate it into a larger Reckoning scenario while others might wave it away as regular hunters with Numina. However it's played, though, we've got solid, canonical metaplot tying a (H)unter splat directly to a (h)unter organization large enough to be common threat to the supernatural. It's an issue to be dealt with, one way or another

Or be swept under the rug, really.
I kind of hope that the 'Second Inquisition' that NuWW has hinted at for their V5 Metaplot changes directly involves *something* along those lines. Not on a large scale, at least on the paranormal humans front - too many imbued/hunters with Numina would change the flair of WoD a bit too much - but it would be a good way to work it in. Keep the hunters a bit more mysterious, even, than the Monsters themselves. That would be a very typical WoD twist.

However, if the Second Inquisition won't involve any of that, then it's kind of up for grabs.

[AzraelFirestorm]

Capital-H Hunters are kind of a temporary thing in a way, if you think about it.
Originally in the Metaplot, the first Hunters gained their powers and received their messages just after the Avatar Storm broke out, the Underworld got ravaged from the explosions during the Week of Nightmares, the living dead began spewing from their graves in accelerated numbers, and the Abyss cracked open. (I.e. switch from 2nd to Revised)

Essentially, at least Metaplot-wise, there is a certain quite good premise for some humans to suddenly be imbued by observing higher powers. And then the Metaplot kind of drove towards its conclusion in the Apocalypse/Gehenna/Ascension etc.

What about Dark Ages Revised-era Inquisitors acting as a deliberate prequel to Imbued Hunters? They're mechanically similar, and even make sense in their differences as a metaplot "alpha test" of the Imbued. I won't go so far as to claim that, like the Imbued, Inquisitors would be revealed as receiving their power from Lucifer or something, but I'll definitely say that White Wolf gave us a genuine retcon by making Leopold von Murnau an Inquisitor. That establishes every metaplot point involving the Society of Leopold as historically attached to what were essentially the Dark Medieval Imbued. That's not nothing, and it most certainly isn't a "temporary thing".

Granted, I'm not sure how everyone else has handled or would handle this information. Some may integrate it into a larger Reckoning scenario while others might wave it away as regular hunters with Numina. However it's played, though, we've got solid, canonical metaplot tying a (H)unter splat directly to a (h)unter organization large enough to be a common threat to the supernatural. It's an issue to be dealt with, one way or another

[Inertial Frame]

The existence of the Imbued feels like a strange thing to add on top; there's a reason that Hungry Dead, Fera, Demons, Fomori and Mummies get references across the books, whereas references to the Imbued are relatively sparse.

To be fair, the Hungry Dead, Fera, Fomori, and Mummies had a lot longer runs in the World of Darkness than you're giving them credit. Mummies had a first/second edition book like Hunters Hunted well before Resurrection was a thing. Fomori were at latest a second edition foe for Garou. Even the other Fera had vague mentions in the Werewolf series before they were player available, as I'm fairly positive both Rage Across the Amazon and Rage Across Australia predated the Changing Breed books. Even the beginnings of the Hungry Dead - designed as Kindred, no less - were in A World of Darkness (Gaki bloodline) and Dark Alliance: Vancouver (Bushi Bloodline), both of which are somewhere around the first/second edition change, as well, if I recall the timing correctly. Only Demons, as in the Fallen, came truly late to the party with capital H Hunters, since it's unlikely that the demons that infernalists do "business" with are capital D Demons.

[Fat Larry]

The existence of the Imbued feels like a strange thing to add on top; there's a reason that Hungry Dead, Fera, Demons, Fomori and Mummies get references across the books, whereas references to the Imbued are relatively sparse.

I'd argue that the reason you don't see a ton of references to the Imbued, as opposed to other splats, is because Reckoning came out at a time when White Wolf was diminishing their output of books .Werewolf, Mage, Vampire, etc. had 5 plus years of material out there to reference each other. Hunter the Reckoning did not. And there were still plenty of references of the Imbued in a number of books.

I don't think Hunters had less references than Demons, Kindred of the East, or Mummies. But hey, if that's a statistical analysis you're stating, then I guess it's true. I just don't FEEL it's true, but I'd have to check the books.

Hunter was supposed to be self-contained. It worked better that way, IMO.

Edit: And Ambrosia has some great points.

[Ambrosia]

For me, personally, Hunters (as in the Imbued Hunters) feel like a strange addition. Hunters Hunted already has options ranging from normal mortals fighting the supernatural (which is the core appeal of being a "Hunter" for many), all the way up to mortals with numina as an edge (another idea, the "Buffy" style hunter, which is a common aspiration for people who want to play as a Hunter). The existence of the Imbued feels like a strange thing to add on top; there's a reason that Hungry Dead, Fera, Demons, Fomori and Mummies get references across the books, whereas references to the Imbued are relatively sparse. The only one I remember is a small section saying that Dhampir can't become Hunters.

Capital-H Hunters are kind of a temporary thing in a way, if you think about it.
Originally in the Metaplot, the first Hunters gained their powers and received their messages just after the Avatar Storm broke out, the Underworld got ravaged from the explosions during the Week of Nightmares, the living dead began spewing from their graves in accelerated numbers, and the Abyss cracked open. (I.e. switch from 2nd to Revised)

Essentially, at least Metaplot-wise, there is a certain quite good premise for some humans to suddenly be imbued by observing higher powers. And then the Metaplot kind of drove towards its conclusion in the Apocalypse/Gehenna/Ascension etc.

Given that the Metaplot will now continue into the present days, with no cataclysm rocking the world anymore, then I can see a metaplot reason for the Hunters to actually slowly dwindle in numbers again, with no new imbued filling the gaps left by those that die.

[11twiggins]

Plus you get the Hunter Hunted 2 book. It's not a core book but it does give you guidelines and set up for creating a Hunter type character in the 20th Anniversary setting.

Honestly I've always found hunters and Hunters to be a weird thing within the WoD.

"You see, a Vampire almost killed me, and it woke something within me-"

"Oh, you Awakened? You're a Magus!"

"Well, no, you see in that moment I made the choice to fight back, to be the light in the darkness-"

"Oh, a faithful hunter, I understand."

"No you see I was chosen by a higher power to defend against dark forces-"

"Mummy? No, wait, you're talking about your First Change? You're a Werewolf!"

I mean everyone has their own limits when it comes to Kitchen Sink effect. For me, personally, Hunters (as in the Imbued Hunters) feel like a strange addition. Hunters Hunted already has options ranging from normal mortals fighting the supernatural (which is the core appeal of being a "Hunter" for many), all the way up to mortals with numina as an edge (another idea, the "Buffy" style hunter, which is a common aspiration for people who want to play as a Hunter). The existence of the Imbued feels like a strange thing to add on top; there's a reason that Hungry Dead, Fera, Demons, Fomori and Mummies get references across the books, whereas references to the Imbued are relatively sparse. The only one I remember is a small section saying that Dhampir can't become Hunters.

[acwrig2]

Plus you get the Hunter Hunted 2 book. It's not a core book but it does give you guidelines and set up for creating a Hunter type character in the 20th Anniversary setting.

[Eldagusto]

To be fair I don't need Hunter as much as the other stuff, since I feel the Corebook is still just as relevant. I feel Hunter Books were mostly fluff for canon and not pertinent to actually running a hunter game.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

As much as I would love to see H20, I doubt we'll see any more 20 stuff just to avoid market confusion. WW is going to want to keep everything in the new system and push that.

That would be my guess.

[Coridan]

As much as I would love to see H20, I doubt we'll see any more 20 stuff just to avoid market confusion. WW is going to want to keep everything in the new system and push that.

[Eldagusto]

As I said - he's never explained as one of the Fallen, it's a misreading of the text that gives people the idea that he was.

Probably not a misreading, but more people just jumping to conclusions.