Change powers activation

[adambeyoncelowe]

As an example, here's how Dominate 1 (Mesmerize) works in VTR2e:

Dominate 1 (Mesmerize)
Cost: None
Dice pool: Int + Expression + Dominate v Resolve + Blood Potency (I'd make this Int + Intimidation v temporary Willpower in VTM, to use the VTM dice pool and traits)
Botch: The person sees through your attempt. Emboldened by this, they can choose to turn a single failure into a success at a time of their choosing.
Failure: Nothing happens.
1-4 successes: The target is mesmerised, so they will follow your commands until they are injured or do something that causes them to make a Conscience roll. Once the mesmerism wears off, they gain a +3 dice bonus to resist future attempts to use the same power on them in the same scene, but they can't quite remember what they did or why.
5+ successes: As above, but you can also issue a 3-4 word command immediately or make them remember a single statement as if it was true ("I was never here," "You did this," etc).

So, in that situation, most of the time, players will just succeed with the 'take half' rule. But even the critical success effect isn't that big of a deal, so it doesn't matter if they have dice pools in the double digits.

[adambeyoncelowe]

With my friends we're already engaged since a year in ou wta campaign and more than 6 month in our vtm campaign, so completely change to game system to another would be disruptive for some. Adapt rules to make them work with our setting (wich represent hard work i agree but that's fun for me, as i said i like to make games my own) is what we do.

A MtA player told me that most of their powers are based on a fix trait roll (arete if my memory is correct), he also said that sorcerer work the same with willpower, and of course Vampire's Thaumaturgie work with it as well. He told me that if it was to get rid of powers roll when players have the same pool as difficulty we could just do like Mage and Sorcerer and roll willpower for all Disciplines and Gifts. According to him in this way the take half system would always work because the pool would never go above 10 and if pc want to get more they would roll and/or spend willpower to have the needed success

Anyway i've had a lot of good advice until now on this thread i think i know better how to handle things

The only thing with Willpower is that a) people only need to specialise in one area to be good at everything and b) Willpower is easy (and cheap) to max out, so you could end up with everyone scoring five successes for every power used.

VTR2e Disciplines wouldn't require huge changes, and your VTM players would get more powerful Disciplines as a result anyway.

The main difference is that all of them only require a single success, so anything from 2-4 successes doesn't matter and it won't screw things up if characters have moderate to large dice pools. That means a character with 2-8 dice in their pool will just succeed and doesn't need a special outcome.

You'd need 9+ dice (if rounding up) to score a critical success, so most powers would just activate with the basic effect. And the effects don't really scale in the same way. It's not like VTM where five successes might let you target loads of people or make a power work for a year or something overpowered like that. You generally just get a small extra bonus instead.

VTR does use different traits and uses three traits for Discipline dice pools, rather than two, so I would stick with VTM dice pools but VTR 'outcomes' and power levels, if that makes sense?

Anyway, it's all up to you. You need to do what works for your table and causes the least amount of upheaval.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

With my friends we're already engaged since a year in ou wta campaign and more than 6 month in our vtm campaign, so completely change to game system to another would be disruptive for some. Adapt rules to make them work with our setting (wich represent hard work i agree but that's fun for me, as i said i like to make games my own) is what we do.

A MtA player told me that most of their powers are based on a fix trait roll (arete if my memory is correct), he also said that sorcerer work the same with willpower, and of course Vampire's Thaumaturgie work with it as well. He told me that if it was to get rid of powers roll when players have the same pool as difficulty we could just do like Mage and Sorcerer and roll willpower for all Disciplines and Gifts. According to him in this way the take half system would always work because the pool would never go above 10 and if pc want to get more they would roll and/or spend willpower to have the needed success

Anyway i've had a lot of good advice until now on this thread i think i know better how to handle things

[adambeyoncelowe]

One of the reasons I think VtR would work better is precisely the question of reliability.

WoD works with amount of successes most of the time, so it is really hard to work around power reliability. Powers are made to track successes and change the outcome based on that. Hence Cain Loup-Noir feels the burden of any significant change affecting the outcome of powers and maybe requiring their complete overhaul, which would be extremely problematic. This specially makes any rule for automatic success a problem to define how effective the result is.

Requiem mostly uses Simple Success unless tracking the amount of success is really important, and the powers are already revised to account for this, as is the rest of the system. That's key to ease the burden on any attempt to remove rolls in this game. Even if using the WoD rules, implementing the VtR powers could help a lot here, either as is or as a basis for the overhaul.

You know, I think you're right. VTR2e has better powers than VTM anyway.

[monteparnas]

One of the reasons I think VtR would work better is precisely the question of reliability.

WoD works with amount of successes most of the time, so it is really hard to work around power reliability. Powers are made to track successes and change the outcome based on that. Hence Cain Loup-Noir feels the burden of any significant change affecting the outcome of powers and maybe requiring their complete overhaul, which would be extremely problematic. This specially makes any rule for automatic success a problem to define how effective the result is.

Requiem mostly uses Simple Success unless tracking the amount of success is really important, and the powers are already revised to account for this, as is the rest of the system. That's key to ease the burden on any attempt to remove rolls in this game. Even if using the WoD rules, implementing the VtR powers could help a lot here, either as is or as a basis for the overhaul.

[adambeyoncelowe]

There's some issue doing so, what if a garou pc prepare an ambush and activate a gift like troll skin? That gift has no limit outside of the pool itself, so if the pc activate it before any fight or stressful situation to get ready, you let him get as many soaking dot than his dice pool?
For some powers it work well (aura detection...), for other letting the character get what he want is quite overpowered (Alienation, Domination, Elementary creation, Mother's touch...)

A second option to the take half is to modify the auto success system, maybe keep it as it is when you have less dice than difficulty (1 willpower point to 1 auto success), and modify it when you have as many dice than difficulty, maybe give 2 auto success without willpower in calm situation an with willpower in stressful situation. Then if you have higher dice pool the auto success is 3 without willpower in calm situation and with willpower in stressful situation. That's generally enough success for majority powers to get the effect wanted and is in accordance with the degree of success. After all that seems strange that a pc or npc with 9 dice only get 1 auto success on a lower difficulty action, while he has the capacity to completely succeed in such a simple action for him.

In my head, the suggestion to let players achieve what they need to when there's no stress wasn't about conflicts -- which are inherently stressful. It was more about keeping the game moving when failure would derail things.

For me, I would assess whether a roll would be stressful for either the character OR the player, and if it would be, then you roll. But you'll need to determine what's right for your table, and then stick to that. Maybe come up with a framework that works for you.

So you have some decision points you need to consider, and here's how I'd do it:

1. Is the outcome and/or opponent important, and is the situation tense for the characters or their players? Then roll. One roll to represent multiple rounds of combat, debate or whatever, is perfectly valid.
2. Is the outcome important, but the opponent is trivial? Or is the outcome trivial, even if the opponent is important? Have the PC roll and the NPC take half.
3. Is the outcome trivial and the opponent trivial? Or is the situation low-risk and low-stress for the characters and players? Just let it happen if the PC has the required knowledge/training. Let the PC say what they intend to do, and just agree a fair outcome based on that (they don't have to get exactly what they want, but it should favour the PC). Or take half for both parties and compare the results for your outcome.

I think commonsense prevails. The planning of the ambush is low stakes, but the ambush itself isn't and it's important to know how many successes the Garou rolls. So I would just make the Garou roll for that Gift. You also said it yourself that you can tell which of those Gifts need a roll and which don't (i.e., it's the ones that would be overpowered without a roll).

I think part of the problem you're running into is that you seem to want to remove rolling for *all* powers at all times. And the system just isn't designed to handle that, so that's why it's breaking down when you try to do that.

When playing a game, dice rolls are there to add a random element, and thus tension and suspense. They also add complications at unexpected times. I wouldn't eschew the dice when the outcome is important or when auto-success makes things too easy -- only when you need to move the story forward and the risk of failure isn't interesting. So it's about being more judicious with your dice rolls, rather than getting rid of them altogether.

There are also a few other handy tools for any ST to reduce rolling in the places where dice are less important:

1. Let it ride. If you called for a Perception roll this scene already, let that ride for the rest of the scene unless the circumstances change. So don't make them keep rolling when they've already passed, unless they want to try something different. If they failed the first time, let them try again, but ask how they try something different this time around and/or increase the difficulty.
2. Trivial humans shouldn't be a concern most of the time. Just let things happen to them that seem fair and appropriate. Let vamps just Dominate mortals unless the chance of failure would be fun -- e.g., if you really need to get a guard out of the way to steal an important artifact from a museum, that requires a roll. But if you have already subdued the guard and just want to erase his memory, maybe just let it happen. At that point, you don't need to keep milking the action with further dice rolls. If this seems too generous, let them spend a WP point in addition to the usual cost in order to not have to roll. That balances it a bit.
3. One-roll conflict can be really handy when you want to move past any kind of confrontation quickly. VTR2e has rules for how to do this even with Discipline use, and I think they're better than V5's version of the same rules. Just let everyone pick a single dice pool that represents their general approach to achieving their goal in combat (the goal doesn't have to be to kill someone; it can be rescuing someone, escaping, subduing someone, etc). Add modifiers based on any other tools, equipment or circumstances in their favour. Have everyone roll and then narrate the outcome based on that. It doesn't have to be a clear "you win", because the goals may not always be opposed, so the results can be less binary: "You achieve your goal, no problem, but your enemy achieves this part of his own goal too; here are the consequences of that..."

If you reduce the number of rolls in the places where they're boring, the players won't mind rolling for powers (or anything else) at important points in the game.

Now, moving onto the unreliability of rolls, that can be due to a few things: bad luck, or lots of rolls (the latter meaning that you have more chances for extreme outcomes). Rolling less frequently is feasible using the steps above. Bad luck is harder to deal with, but you should, in theory, also get a break every now and again too. But sometimes the dice just seem to be against you.

There is one more way to handle this: an Advantage/Disadvantage system, so that rolling itself becomes more reliable when things are in your favour. That also makes the things we've talked about, such as when an action is stress-free or should be easy, have a bit more mechanical weight.

So instead of giving people modifiers, you can give them Advantage or Disadvantage to replace all of them, and those qualities will make the dice results more reliable when needed.

With Advantage you can either: roll each dice pool twice, and take the higher result; or roll the dice pool once but take the higher of your rolled successes or the successes you'd get by 'taking half'. That means dice pools with Advantage will either trend towards doing half their value, or will always score at least half their dice in successes, depending on which version you use. Pick which version works best for you.

Disadvantage would work in the opposite way: roll twice and take the lower result; or roll once, but cap your successes at half your dice pool. Again, pick the version that works best for you, but it should probably be balanced with the Advantage option you choose.

If you have two sources of Advantage, you can take Major Advantage: roll the dice pool once and keep any successes rolled, then re-roll all failed dice and keep any successes rolled there too.

Likewise, Major Disadvantage would be the opposite: re-roll any successes, keeping only the final number of successes showing.

Advantage and Disadvantage can stack, so one of each leads to no modifier, while two Advantage and one Disadvantage results in just Advantage, and one Advantage and three Disadvantage would result in Major Disadvantage.

Then you can rule that spending WP on a roll gives you Advantage. So any time someone doesn't want to flub their roll, they can pay the price to get a more reliable outcome, while not entirely eliminating the need to roll.

Of course, your suggested auto success rules also work, but the reason they start to feel a bit fiddly is because we're stretching the rules to do things they're not really designed for.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

Outside of stressful situations, I would just have them succeed. No need to roll. Just let them state what they intend to do and narrate the outcome.

There's some issue doing so, what if a garou pc prepare an ambush and activate a gift like troll skin? That gift has no limit outside of the pool itself, so if the pc activate it before any fight or stressful situation to get ready, you let him get as many soaking dot than his dice pool?
For some powers it work well (aura detection...), for other letting the character get what he want is quite overpowered (Alienation, Domination, Elementary creation, Mother's touch...)

A second option to the take half is to modify the auto success system, maybe keep it as it is when you have less dice than difficulty (1 willpower point to 1 auto success), and modify it when you have as many dice than difficulty, maybe give 2 auto success without willpower in calm situation an with willpower in stressful situation. Then if you have higher dice pool the auto success is 3 without willpower in calm situation and with willpower in stressful situation. That's generally enough success for majority powers to get the effect wanted and is in accordance with the degree of success. After all that seems strange that a pc or npc with 9 dice only get 1 auto success on a lower difficulty action, while he has the capacity to completely succeed in such a simple action for him.

[adambeyoncelowe]

Also, I would second Requiem 2e as a good system. In that, you roll Attribute + Skill + Discipline for most Disciplines, which means that they will nearly always beat humans by default (who will just use Attribute + Skill). Success is on 8+, so the numbers work out as 0.33 successes per die, so you'd have to use 'take a third' instead of 'take half', but a lot of lower level Discipline powers don't require rolls and are very powerful anyway.

[adambeyoncelowe]

In fact what my friends want is stability when they use their powers, at least when they're in calm situation instead of getting one time 1 success and other time 4 when they have big pool.
The easiest way but the longest is to rewrite each powers to give them fix effect, this way pc wojld roll only when their pool is lower than the difficulty.
The fastest but hardest is to rewrite the auto-success system or houserule something for powers only
An idea i've had when a power need a roll and need only one success to work you don't roll if you have the same pool as the difficulty. When the effect are defined by the number of succes then you turn that number into fix difficulty. The base would be 6 to the equivalent of 1 success, 7 is equal to 2 success, 8 = 3 and 10 is equal to 5. Spending willpower allow to get the 6th. If you have less than 6 dice then you must roll to atteign only the first success and have the basic minimal effects.

Problem is that some power use at the same time difficulty and number of success (the jam technology gift is a good exemple).

Outside of stressful situations, I would just have them succeed. No need to roll. Just let them state what they intend to do and narrate the outcome. You can use the dice pools of any opponents to adjust the outcome without rolling (so, for evenly matched opponents, the outcome may be less impressive). Against humans, I would just have the best outcome usually happen, though.

But take half does this, as well. If you have 10 dice, you get 5 successes. If you have two, you get one.

The auto-succeed if 'dice equal to difficulty' thing is the standard rule for automatic success in V20 and earlier anyway.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

In fact i like to make it my own, so... the 2nd edition of vampire requiem and werewolf the forsaken is it? I look inside and see what i can find
Your pool of success is a good one too, it need some restriction and limit and as i said we need to incorporate it in the game as a real caracteristic and not a meta bonus. The take half and the pool of success are smart trick

[monteparnas]

I was trying not to go into this, but the more I read here the more I think that you're actually better off learning VtR 2nd and adapting it to the setting of Masquerade. Most of the changes you and your group want are exactly what they did there, period.

Sorry, but you're almost on the road of remaking the system anew because you don't really like it. There are other systems that work better for what you want from the game, not only VtR. Unless the huge work you're putting into transmuting the classic WoD system into something else is being that much fun for you, just look for better alternatives.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

I think take half solves most of your problems. If people fail too often, you could allow them to spend Willpower after the fact to get a success or re-roll three dice. That might help.

In fact what my friends want is stability when they use their powers, at least when they're in calm situation instead of getting one time 1 success and other time 4 when they have big pool.
The easiest way but the longest is to rewrite each powers to give them fix effect, this way pc wojld roll only when their pool is lower than the difficulty.
The fastest but hardest is to rewrite the auto-success system or houserule something for powers only
An idea i've had when a power need a roll and need only one success to work you don't roll if you have the same pool as the difficulty. When the effect are defined by the number of succes then you turn that number into fix difficulty. The base would be 6 to the equivalent of 1 success, 7 is equal to 2 success, 8 = 3 and 10 is equal to 5. Spending willpower allow to get the 6th. If you have less than 6 dice then you must roll to atteign only the first success and have the basic minimal effects.

Problem is that some power use at the same time difficulty and number of success (the jam technology gift is a good exemple).

[adambeyoncelowe]

In our party when we think about new gameplay mechanics our first priority is to really incorporate it in the game, not give a meta bonus, that's why it's hard to simplify powers roll.

I think take half solves most of your problems. If people fail too often, you could allow them to spend Willpower after the fact to get a success or re-roll three dice. That might help.

You could also make Willpower a bit easier to come by -- e.g., whenever someone rolls 5+ successes (you must roll, not take half), whenever someone gives into the Beast for a moment (such as lashing out or feeding at an inopportune time), at the end of every scene, etc.

One way to do it is to allow every character to roll their permanent Willpower every night when they arise, and then restore points equal to the successes. Or maybe do that at the start of the session.

Restoring all WP at the start of every session would also work. It may be too generous, though, depending on your own style and preferences.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

In our party when we think about new gameplay mechanics our first priority is to really incorporate it in the game, not give a meta bonus, that's why it's hard to simplify powers roll.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

In VtR 2nd you only roll one pool per attack. Defense is subtracted from Attack dice and damage is successes plus weapon, no rolls. Stamina goes to Health levels, lethal damage is a little rarer and Aggravated a lot rarer even before Vampire's sturdiness being applied. It reduces rolls in combat a lot, and generally works well.

I've heard of those rules, it's been part of developpement for the system i described higher.