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How do you imagine the 6th edition of WoD?

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  • #16
    Also, someone has some link or sources about 5th editions going really bad ? I am looking around but I'm not able to find anything.


    -'' We are the unsullied.
    We are the inheritors.
    We are the Pure ''-

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    • #17
      I think we are a long time away from anything remotely "6th Edition." We are not that far into the production cycle of parawolf's WoD. W5 isn't even on shelves yet. If anything, sometime in the future (maybe after M5) we might see a V5 'revised' corebook printing to make it more 'inline' with the idea that WoD5 isn't a continuation but a reimagining of the setting.

      For possible "optimistic" lines of thought about WoD6, I'd really think that Paradox should just hire Onyx Path to make it. I think using the StoryPath system would of been a nice go forward with a system and don't doubt they could have made good 'metaplot' changes with nice city and chronicles books.

      Originally posted by Helur View Post
      Also, someone has some link or sources about 5th editions going really bad ? I am looking around but I'm not able to find anything.
      There isn't anything outright saying "sales generated are X from this IP" it's more the sales metrics that we do have (icv2 and drivethrurpg) seem to indicate that the sales of WoD5 products have not done great but, that is speculation. Paradox hasn't released sales figures and likely never will.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by MrNatas View Post
        I think we are a long time away from anything remotely "6th Edition." We are not that far into the production cycle of parawolf's WoD. W5 isn't even on shelves yet. If anything, sometime in the future (maybe after M5) we might see a V5 'revised' corebook printing to make it more 'inline' with the idea that WoD5 isn't a continuation but a reimagining of the setting.

        For possible "optimistic" lines of thought about WoD6, I'd really think that Paradox should just hire Onyx Path to make it. I think using the StoryPath system would of been a nice go forward with a system and don't doubt they could have made good 'metaplot' changes with nice city and chronicles books.



        There isn't anything outright saying "sales generated are X from this IP" it's more the sales metrics that we do have (icv2 and drivethrurpg) seem to indicate that the sales of WoD5 products have not done great but, that is speculation. Paradox hasn't released sales figures and likely never will.

        So, how much this kind of speculation can be true? I mean, Paradox has rights on every vtm, wta and so on videogames, not only on the various pdf and books.
        Do not misunderstand me, I don't want to be rude, I just don't get how we can say ''5th edition is going bad'', if a lot of vtm narrative/videogames are out in few years. I mean...can we really say something about it just from the metrics?


        -'' We are the unsullied.
        We are the inheritors.
        We are the Pure ''-

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Helur View Post
          So, how much this kind of speculation can be true? I mean, Paradox has rights on every vtm, wta and so on videogames, not only on the various pdf and books.
          Do not misunderstand me, I don't want to be rude, I just don't get how we can say ''5th edition is going bad'', if a lot of vtm narrative/videogames are out in few years. I mean...can we really say something about it just from the metrics?
          Speculation is speculation. It's not true or false and saying "is it really true" isn't a good statement especially when you yourself are attacking this from the angle of not really understand the metrics that things are being evaluated.

          So a couple of things. 'a lot of vtm narrative/videogames are out in few years' doesn't equate to sales or even that something is going strongly. Like a company can make shovelware and just move to the next shovelware project and that doesn't indicate how good a company is going or an IP is going. The vast majority of the VN style games for WoD I would say are able to be turned out with minimal production money spent on the project. So again, let's look at the evidence we do have.

          All The VN style games have reviewed at 60-70 scores, not great but probably OK for the money that went into production. Bloodhunt has a score of 75 with a 24-hour peek of 807 (as of writing this) and an all-time high of 29,008. So that indicates a huge drop off and an indication of it being a dying game. Swansong has a score of 65 and reviews are reporting issues with the game itself, Earthblood has a score of 55 and has reviews talking about how it isn't fun to play and is bland. So, what can we gleam from this, large production games in the WoD setting are not generation good reviews and developers are probably not going to continue on when customers are put off by the Metacritic scores indicating these are not good games. VtMB didn't save Troika Games, when it was released, it only sold 72K copies and as of 2017 sold 550k copies on steam. So even the flagship "World of Darkness Videogame" is not a hit seller, so a videogame existing doesn't indicate healthy growth.

          But again, this is all speculation, I will never actually know because I don't have insider information to give me hard data. I can only speculate and come up with a logical conclusion based upon the evidence I have.

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          • #20
            This whole situation and the general pessimism about it reminds me a lot to The Simpsons. A very great series in the past, nowadays, drowned by questionable corporate decisions and a general lack of quality or interest in all its departments. Meanwhile the elements which make it great are more and more stripped from a show which only exists in order to sell related products. At least , this my personal opinion reading your later posts about all the WoD situation. Well... at least RPG chronicles are a thing that you can do by yourself (with a group of friends or internet people) and the oWoD, which I love, died from its own success many years ago. In this horizon, honestly, I only want to wish towards the people who like this new world of darkness that they enjoy it and make great stories about it nwn .
            Last edited by Metalbird; 11-08-2022, 11:30 AM.

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            • #21
              The Simpsons is also an apt comparison on a tension in Paradox's take on the WoD: brand relevance vs. content relevance.

              A lot of what's wrong with the Simpsons is that fixing a lot of the issues it has with being relevant means changing things that people would consider core aspects of The Brand. You can't just take the Simpsons as they existing in 1989 and transplant them to 2022 and have it make sense. Even the show itself has recently mocked the idea that Millenials and Zoomers could possibly connect to something that's ripping of the setup of the Honeymooners. But if you take that sitcom setup away, then you've come a completely different core concept.

              Despite the WoD have the advantage of not having to deal with the "eternal now" where the Simpsons has been going on for 34 seasons but everyone is still basically in the same situation - and thus the WoD can change over time to stay relevant - WoD5 seems to be struggling a lot with that. There's a lot of potential reasons why, but in the end, trying to "get back to zeitgeist of the early 90s," isn't a winning approach to try to balance maintaining the core brand concepts, and adding socially relevant content to it.

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              • #22
                I also think the Simpsons comparison is apt due what ratings and views mean for a show. The Simpsons doesn't need to be good, if you look at the ratings data you can actually see it's not 'good' but, it needs to be profitable enough to keep making content for comparatively to the cost.

                Paradox doesn't need the WoD IP to be some cultural icon that changes the landscape of RPGs going into the 2020s, it just needs to be good enough to have people buy their product and make a profit. Everything I can tell that it's pretty much just making this bar. WoD going forward under Paradox is probably going to be middling but that will keep it afloat enough to keep putting some effort into it.

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                • #23
                  In an ideal scenario, Paradox would've hired OPP to do the WoD books, using Renegade's distribution. And that might still end up being the solution.

                  If you'd asked me in late 2018/early 2019, I'd have said OPP wouldn't be able to keep up with the production schedule needed for a new edition that hits brick and mortar stores, but... V5 has been plodding along at a pretty chilled pace anyway, after the first few books.

                  When OPP did Cults of the Blood Gods, they leveraged the support via Kickstarter to also do Trails of Ash and Bone and Forbidden Cults, too.

                  They actually might have been able to provide more supplements in the last four years than Paradox has, had they been the ones delivering.

                  Now it seems that new V5 releases have almost stopped entirely (there's a Players Guide, a Boston by Night PDF, and... is that it on the horizon?). I also can't see much scope for new books to come out, as they've covered the core sects, done a few chronicles and don't seem that interested in the supplement treadmill.

                  I honestly think, given all that, that OPP could pull off a decent 6th edition at a pace that would keep the sales coming in and with a very consistent level of quality.

                  I think they'd also be respectful of the game and try to take advantage both of the RPG renaissance and of the nostalgia factor -- so they would take the bits of V5 that work and weave them into the lessons they've learned doing V20.

                  I also suspect they'd be better placed to do a bit of open development (not a full open development like D&D or Pathfinder, but what we saw for some of the CofD books would be enough) to gauge audience interest in given ideas.


                  Writer, publisher, performer
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                  • #24
                    Ideally I'd like to see an refinement and integration of good 5th ideas with a setting more respectful of previous setting concepts and play while implementing an extensive robust system of mechanics than either. Lean into the fandoms diversity and setting charms rather than push back against it. Also they need to stop treating the rpg as an afterthought for the video game spin offs-this has the opposite affect to what they desire.

                    Oh and while I'm being petty no more photoshoots please. They cost just as much as an artist anyway.

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                    • #25
                      Metaplot agnostic is literally the best thing ever if you just want to use the IP to churn out computer games. Never have to worry about shit like "I want smartphones and real world 2022 problems in the backdrop but I also want my own plotline not overshadowed by global metaplot happenings/ I want Ravnos not dead, the Gangrel in the Camarilla and the Tremere whole and unsundered because of-fucking-course I do/a good chunk of what I want to write for my game relies on long established norms and a functional undead society".


                      V5 is not a good introductory point. You've come into the room after shit hit the fan and need to catch up to understand what the hell is happening. Especially for newcomers, simplicity is king.


                      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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                      • #26
                        I'm not really sure if I agree with the idea that you have to know everything about how the setting got to a place in order to have fun in the setting. Like does knowing about the Laibon and their society and how the Ventrue of Europe made inroads to their territory and the conflicts and deals in that content add anything to VtmB? Sure, it does but, not knowing it doesn't make the Sheriff any lesser of enemy.

                        Like if there was a Video Game set in Mexico City, would me knowing that who Samuel Haight was add anything more to the game? Maybe but, even if there was a quest about some kind of fallout due to 'Chaos Factor' the character you are playing would be going into the situation unaware of what's going on, so should have at least some information given to you as part of the quest.

                        Like here is an interesting question. Why doesn't VtmB have generation? Like the PC doesn't have a generation stat and it hardly comes up in conversation. Does knowing about generation and who is the sire/childe of who add more to the story of the Video Game? Like does knowing that Smiling Jack is 10th Gen add more to the experince?

                        I may not like V5 but, I don't think its any less a vaild intoduction to the setting then, V20 or Revised. The World of Darkness is always has something going on but, when telling the story about the Character its way more important to filter what is relvent to the story and give it to the player organically and it's not like CofD wouldn't have the same problems of getting players information they need to know to have context of what they are doing in their RPG.

                        Like here's an example using a different TTRPG and video game combo. In Cyberpunk 2077 do you have to know about Adam Smasher, Johnny Silverhand, and Arasaka Corporation to enjoy the game? No because anything you need to know is told to you as it becomes important to the story.

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                        • #27
                          Put it this way. The original 7 in the camarilla was the best sandbox you could've asked for. The Tremere have a little baggage but you don't need to know about it while the other six clans are at their core very simple and can be collectively summed up in two minutes. The vampires have agreed to a few rules but the big one's the masquerade. Your city has some leadership arrangement: could be a prince with a sherrif, could be a council, could be both, could be an elaborate system that's explained to you as needed, doesn't matter. Point is, If you're paying attention I can explain everything in under 10 minutes and add new stuff when we come to it. Because I can be so succinct with this, you're not going to be lost when I start describing the particulars of the city.

                          The V5 situation can't be explained in 10 minutes. For starters the Anarchs are equals to the Camarilla and so I can't just talk about the seven camarilla clans. The Lasombra, Assamites, Brujah and Gangrel are important clans who have been the subject of upsets so need a little more explaining. The beckoning needs explaining. The traditions still need explaining but also the bogus technophobe rules concerning the SI need explaining. Maybe you'' want to give the players House Carna as an option so you'll need to explain how they're awkwardly different from the Tremere. You've got more than twice as much baggage to unload regarding the setting, before we even get into the storyteller's personal city setup.

                          For players just getting into the setting, the difference between <20 mins of setting and <40 mins of setting to even get round the concepts so that you can comfortably create a character with backgrounds and work it into the story is huge. Let's not even get into the burden that V5's complexities put on storytellers.


                          Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                          There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                          • #28
                            See again you are tackling this from the "We have to tell them the history of how everyone got here so that the people can have a fun time in the sandox." When that isn't true at all. Again, I'm going to say an example of a different game. Do we need, as players, to know what is going on in the wider world of Tamriel to enjoy and play in Skyrim? Does understanding how the Altmer culture works and the relationship the Mer and Men have with Lorkan? How the recent Hammerfell rebellion against Dominion has affected the rest of the Empire?

                            Like in VtmB just how much is explain about the clans in particular? How much is talked about Garou and their entire backstory and lore? Hell, you fight a Same-Bito in bloodlines and you get next to nothing about it expect Yukie telling you wrong information. Saying that you have to talk and explain what the deal of each clan is, each sect, the rules, what is the relationship of everyone to everyone else so that a player can do a quest about bugging a Police Officer's house. Even the opening of the Bloodlines tells you nothing about Lore concepts. You get into a middle of the Sabbat raid during the optional tutorial and what is said about the Sabbat "They are a bunch of wackos" and that is never expanded on.

                            You can spend a ton of time explaining everything to a player, and I'll even acknowledge the players would be better for it. But to actually play a game how much do players need? There is a massive difference between "getting into a setting" and "having fun in a game." You don't need to know anything about how The Eldest is an eldritch thing in the New York City sewers to deal with a turf war against two gangs one backed by the Camarilla and the other backed by the Anarchs. Like you don't even need to know what each sect stands for to have players make decisions. Because the ideology of the sects won't matter as much as the context of story itself. The players won't care about how the Camarilla was made in 1495 and that the Anarchs are a reactionary movement started in LA etc. They'll care that their base is in the territory that is being contested and that Camarilla has let them have domain rights there and they don't know if a rival sect will keep those rights if they defect.

                            Also talking about the 'complexities put on storytellers', isn't ever an apt point to take. Because game leads always have more work on the backside. I don't think it's far to compare "in order to run a city you should know what the goals are for all the major parties and their pawns" vs "in order to play in a city you need to know what your goals are." Storytellers know what they are getting into by saying they are going to run the game, or at least they should. It's the responsibility on the person to say if they know enough to run not the game's responsibility to make sure they know enough. With this in mind however, I do think it's a game designer failing to have massive plot holes in their setting. There is a difference between knowing what the beckoning is mechanically and how it effects a city I want to run and. knowing what the beckoning is lorewise and how it effects the setting at large.

                            This is all to say, you can just play a game without doing homework and have a fun time. Players don't need to be sat down and explained the lore of everything to enjoy a game. A brand new player going into a game might not know what the culture of all the clans are or their relationship between them but, that's not a place to stop the game to explain what everything is but an opportunity to explain it in the course of the game by say have a Brujah Prince give the player Ventrue a hard time and then have the Ventrue primogen say "Hey why don't we get some revenge on that guy." The player doesn't know this Jyhad is going back to Carthage, but they do diegetically know Ventrue and Brujah don't get along.
                            Last edited by MrNatas; 11-11-2022, 10:38 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Bruh... you're just skirting around whatever I'm saying to make your points.


                              If you're planning a game of vampire and doing anything more than a one-shot, you will need to give at least quick summaries of the clans they can play.

                              "The Toreador are a jack-of-all trades clan who are fast, charming and have heightened senses. They are often socialites and get distracted by beauty.

                              "The Tremere are a feared and well organized clan of vampire wizards that work together like a corporation. They have mind control, heightened senses and magic."

                              "Ventrue are vampire businessmen and nobles. Each ventrue can only feed on a specific prey like virgins, gingers, amputees and so on. They have mind control, charm and durability"



                              If we ignore Caitiff, You need to do that for seven clans, the others are really options for experienced players. If you're playing a Sabbat game for your first game, the storyteller is probably pegging the players as the type ready to go all in, so it's fine, but even with the Sabbat there's actually less of a headache than setting up a V5 game.

                              In V5, there are TWELVE (ten if we don't count Tremere splits) options split between the two equally valid sects people want to play, excluding the Hecata because I'm trying to be generous here. Banu Haquim, Brujah, Gangrel, Lasombra, Malkavian, Ministry of Set, Nosferatu Toreador (Carna and Ip), Tremere, Ventrue,


                              And therein lies one of the greatest problems of V5 (especially when we start talking about discipline selection, because why simply pick from Ten common disciplines when you can give each discipline two or three powers a level and thus have to choose from 25 or so possible starting powers)
                              It's a lot of petty stuff, but it adds up. And given how unwieldy character creation in V5 is, it's more frustrating than liberating.


                              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                              • #30
                                God, I wouldn't want to have to spend time explaining all the Clans and Covenants for a Requiem game. Not that I haven't considered ditching Requiem Clans entirely and just letting players pick any bane they want, but it's not hard to explain everything.

                                The issue with Masquerade Clans is that half of them are more specialised and focused, there's quite a bit of redundancy, and some negative stereotypes that the core clans mostly avoid. But they're still not impossible to explain, and nobody said you had to offer every potential option. Even in V5 'corebook clans only' is very reasonable, which drops you down to the original seven/eight and Thin Bloods. Then you just need to decide which of the three sects are important enough to this sandbox to need a brief.


                                Blue is sarcasm.

                                If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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