How much value does the WOD being a Huge Brand has to you?

[Ragged Robin]

Would scripted radio dramas be that? Like they have the live plays but like something that is more "Here is your lines and character" be more akin to that?

Possibly, full blown TV series are way out of reach for now they should be focusing on smaller more realistic projects. 40k is only flirting with this sort of stuff now and 40k is far better established than wod.

Combined with a serious re think of how they're developing the actual table games (less 'one true game' with indie philosophy and more 20th flavour and broader appeal) and 10 years and maybe they could consider a TV series. This of coarse is assuming they're serious about being a huge multi media brand.

[Heavy Arms]

I think thee are ways to move a bit faster than that, but they need something I don't think they really have: a strong idea of what the WoD is going to look like in 5 years.

League of Legends didn't need to work up to Arcane with lots of smaller projects. Arcane was possible because Riot Games knows what LoL "is" as a brand. It has plans for the main game basically in perpetuity. They had enough "setting bible" material for the show's creators to work with, and enough confidence to allow plenty of creative liberties with the lore of the game as long as the characters never deviated too far from how they're "supposed to feel."

They also did wonders for themselves by finding Fortiche to give Arcane a visual appeal that really stands out in the very anime-inspired animation zeitgeist we currently have (not that anime-inspired is bad, but good animation of other styles stand out when something else have become "standard").

This is on of the big problems with how much it feels like Paradox doesn't really "like" the lore of the WoD. It's the lore the brand built up over a decade that made the original video games notable. It's the lore that a studio like Fortiche could turn into the WoD's version of Arcane. That lore is what lets you make something accessible to wider audiences and exciting to existing fans at the same time to make a TV show successful.

Maybe doing shorts first is better. As someone firmly in the "WoD should be an anthology oriented show" camp, starting closer to Love, Death & Robots could certainly be the right move over a more traditional 30 min/1 hr run time, or the "season anthology" types of shows like American Horror Story.

But none of that is going to get their if the brand isn't functional for creatives to make good stories. The perception that the brand doesn't know how to handle its own game's lore is a giant problem for attracting the creatives you need to move anything forward regardless of the project size.

[Shakanaka]

Should Onyx Path buy the rights of WoD from Paradox?

[ArcaneArts]

Should Onyx Path buy the rights of WoD from Paradox?

Here in lies the rub: World of Darkness still has a pretty penny price tag on it alone, and you have to account that it's likely still bundled with Chronicles and Exalted.

OP has a pretty reliable customer base (their Kickstarters, if any indicator, are remarkably consistent across the base) and can pay a pretty decent penny of their own to their freelancers with that...but they're still not big in that way. It's a comfy set up for what they do, but it doesn't compete with the money needed for something has potential as a multimedia product-this is, in fact, why White Wolf sold World to CCP to begin with, and why there was some excitement with the Paradox purchase-these are companies that can do the expanded brand stuff that fans would like to see (done well, that is).

The nominal best answer is the one that's been the relative drumbeat since the problems first showed: in terms of the tabletop roleplaying games, Onyx Path should make them, in terms of everything else, that can be Paradox's work....except that Onyx Path's design sensibilites as it was previously shown were at odds with the specific individual desires of the original purchasers, and some of the consequences of the long run into the ground of that is that Paradox probably has to try and optimize the money making on World a little bit by trying to really focus on getting max profit from minimum effort, which means outsourcing to Onyx Path is a critical tactical decision that has to be clearly worth it. It's a decision they're clearly still open to, but in terms of giving over the full reins, Paradox probably isn't in a position to be comfortable with that yet.

Two other things that might factor into it. 1) There might also be something of a sunk cost fallacy where in Paradox doesn't think they've proven enough of what they can do with the brand before making that decision and not have it look bad. 2) This is just a feeling, but that said, I get the overall feeling still that Paradox generally still feels like they've got a better top-down design for World than what Onyx Path would deliver, and if that's the case, it's reasonable to assume that they won't do that until they are thoroughly disabused of the notion.

Then again, maybe their ideas for Mage will actually, legitimately not only be good an absolute revolution. I don't think it's likely, but it could happen.

[TwoDSix]

Honestly I'd love a proper WoD radio drama, but who really makes them anymore? I know they're basically dead in America, and over here if it's spoken word radio it's basically the BBC or nobody. So we'd likely be looking at a podcast, which has it's advantages (particularly the lack of a need for consistent episode lengths), but might not be the kind of mainstream thing Paradox is looking for. Or they could go straight to selling CDs/downloads, but that'll likely be even harder to market.

Like, I absolutely adore radio dramas, I think they can be an amazing example of limitations breeding creativity. But they're not really a big thing anymore, barring possibly The Archers.


As to OPP potentially buying WoD I expect it, and possibly even just CofD on its own, are probably way more than what they can afford. For the already mentioned reasons, bare in mind the WW properties they were able to buy were the less popular ones. I wouldn't be surprised if there's vague plans for a fourth Storypath game in case OPP becomes unable to work on WoD and CofD which'll be a similar genre to the WoD lines but meaningfully distinct. Or maybe just a broadening of what kind of creatures get a focus in Scion.

[Shakanaka]

If Paradox keeps fumbling World of Darkness like they have been for a while now, I predict that they might just cut losses, and sell WoD and CofD for discounted prices to Onyx Path.

[ArcaneArts]

If Paradox keeps fumbling World of Darkness like they have been for a while now, I predict that they might just cut losses, and sell WoD and CofD for discounted prices to Onyx Path.

Or sell it to some other big brain, big money company with a plan.

[Heavy Arms]

People clearly want VtM and WoD stuff beyond the TTRPGs. Onyx Path isn't really in a position to leverage that. Paradox's initial idea wasn't misplaced. There was a huge amount of hype when Bloodlines 2 was announced because there's a vast potential audience out there for it.

The brand needs to be in better hands. And however much I, as a TTRPG primary fan of the brand, don't see Onyx Path as capable of being the best hands for it. Onyx Path could do a lot to clean up the brand for TTRPGs (and maybe some LARP board/card games, and so on) if they owned it outright. A high end video game? TV shows? That's stuff Onyx Path needs resources it currently hasn't shown it has. That's not a knock against Onyx Path, it's just the reality of things.

[Asmodai]

If Paradox keeps fumbling World of Darkness like they have been for a while now, I predict that they might just cut losses, and sell WoD and CofD for discounted prices to Onyx Path.

Doubtful. The IP has more value than that. It's not the kind of money Onyx Path can move around. Just because we may be unhappy how it's utilised doesn't mean it's hurting their bottom line. Remember, the RPG's are nothing to them, and the WoD was likely a longterm investment for things OTHER than pen and paper.

The WoD itself is in an unclear situation creatively and it's not getting any huge traction, but it's not like the brand is dying off. Right now it has more visibility than before, but that's not saying much, even if it is enough for Paradox.

[MrNatas]

Honestly I'd love a proper WoD radio drama, but who really makes them anymore? I know they're basically dead in America, and over here if it's spoken word radio it's basically the BBC or nobody. So we'd likely be looking at a podcast, which has it's advantages (particularly the lack of a need for consistent episode lengths), but might not be the kind of mainstream thing Paradox is looking for. Or they could go straight to selling CDs/downloads, but that'll likely be even harder to market.

I'm basically think of a podcast, I don't think anyone listens to radio radio anymore. The reason I think something like it would be a good idea is because of the successes of the Live Play of LA by Night that has given way for a second game. There clearly is an audience in WoD that wants to watch drama play out. So the next "step" if you want to call it that would be making a 'radio drama' it doesn't have to be on the radio itself but, some kind of serialized show that isn't a game hosted on the website.

If Paradox keeps fumbling World of Darkness like they have been for a while now, I predict that they might just cut losses, and sell WoD and CofD for discounted prices to Onyx Path.

I think its really not going to happen like that. At least not when the "Big three" are not on shelves yet. It hard to say that Parawolf is fumbling when it doesn't have its entire line of products available. So I think (based on what little data I can speculate with) I think its reasonable to assume that V5 (while not what I personally wanted) was at least enough of a success in sales that they want to continue.

I think we are not anytime close to a regime change and I think its more likely that Paradox would cut up the White Wolf IPs and sell of the stuff they don't want to do anything with. In that way we might see OPP get CofD but again I'm not counting on it to happen anytime soon.

The WoD itself is in an unclear situation creatively and it's not getting any huge traction, but it's not like the brand is dying off. Right now it has more visibility than before, but that's not saying much, even if it is enough for Paradox.

I honest feel like 5e is like the DND4th of World of Darkness. It's not going to kill the brand and there are going to be things taken by the people going forward. Some people are going to like that version a lot and some people will say its vile. But it was the edition for that time that lasted for six years. I wouldn't count on an end of 5e until Mage is out.

To put it in perspective the V5 corebook was released in 2018, if we say that each big three are going to get a 5-6 year publishing cycle (with overlap) then we are probably looking at 2028 to be the earliest that a new edition would be considered. That said, OPP is doing extended stuff with Scion which is really neat IMO. Stuff with Cthulhu mythos, and their recent stuff with Dragons. So we can easily see the Scion setting made into very expanded Urban Fantasy setting.

[Heavy Arms]

One constant problem with comparing anything to D&D, is the scale issue.

D&D 4e, despite how divisive it was, was actually profitable. Mostly because to a lot of the world RPGs = D&D, and whatever edition is on the shelf right now is what people buy. All of the edition wars represented a very small portion of D&D customers that occupy spaces like dedicated RPG forums. WotC has a problem that pretty much no other company gets to dream of having: making more money on an edition of a RPG than most RPGs will ever make, and still not making enough to make corporate happy. D&D 4e's big problem was supplements, as the farther along the edition got, the more it got into the stuff that's more focused on the niche and more hardcore fans, where the divisiveness started to hurt sales compared to the core books. D&D 4e, by WotC's released numbers, sold more core books than 3.X did, but consistently lost ground when it came to setting material, modules, secondary merch, and so on.

Pretty much every other RPG company can't just end an edition earlier than intended while still turning what would be for them record setting profits. Lots of RPGs have had their brands ruined by these sorts of things; and only a few have managed to get resurrected to any meaningful level of success.

Paradox does have the operating cash to eat the losses their taking... the question is how long they have the stomach for it before they opt to change strategies (including potentially selling off things).

[MyWifeIsScary]

I really must contest an idea here concerning TV shows: while werewolf, changeling or wraith would far and away demand absurd budgets to even get started, Vampire and Mage have really, really low barriers for entry. Like, you don't need expensive special effects to sell the common vampire powers or coincidental magic, hell I'd argue the less you use the better you can sell the idea of the Masquerade/coincidental Magick and that these societies can actually keep themselves a secret.

[ArcaneArts]

I really must contest an idea here concerning TV shows: while werewolf, changeling or wraith would far and away demand absurd budgets to even get started, Vampire and Mage have really, really low barriers for entry. Like, you don't need expensive special effects to sell the common vampire powers or coincidental magic, hell I'd argue the less you use the better you can sell the idea of the Masquerade/coincidental Magick and that these societies can actually keep themselves a secret.

It has less to do with anything about special effects and more that making a tv show is an expensive venture in and of itself, nevermind making one of decent quality and substance that will at least earn mediocre ratings.

Though I think you may be underestimating how many effects go into vampire shows these days.

[Heavy Arms]

TV show budgeting is also just... complicated... in ways that impacts all sorts of things. In general, TV shows get a season budget, that then gets broken up between the episodes. Producers and directors have to figure out which episodes get more money than others; whether that's because they want to have large number of extras, more special effects, an expensive guest star, etc.

If a show gets $10m for a ten episode season, that rarely means each episode is going to get a $1m budget. The 1st, 9th, and 10th episodes are likely to get higher budgets, while the middle episodes will have to make do with less. This is how we end up with Bottle Episodes* being an industry standard practice. There's a huge amount of skill, spread out by a relatively large group of people, necessary to make sure that every episode feels rewarding and doesn't feel like filler, while from the get go some are more important than others in terms of resource allocation. And like most such endeavors, the better the team you have, the more they expect to be compensated for it.

* - Bottle Episodes are when a show does an episode that only uses the core cast, and reuses sets and props, so they can save money by cutting out any costs that aren't inherent with filming an episode (or sometimes for some reason they need to scrap a planned episode and need a new one fast, so they can't prep things like new sets or find actors for parts that haven't even been written yet)..

[AnubisXy]

If Paradox keeps fumbling World of Darkness like they have been for a while now, I predict that they might just cut losses, and sell WoD and CofD for discounted prices to Onyx Path.

Considering how Onyx Path has been handling Exalted, I'm honestly not sure that they would be able to handle the entirety of the World of Darkness lines much better than Paradox has been.