Are there "Kill On Sight" enemies in Changeling (i.e., like BSDs or Nephandi?)

[CaptOtter]

Despite the weaving in of nuance into the presentation of enemies in the the main lines games (Vampire, Mage, Werewolf), there are always enemies that you don't have to think twice about killing--for vampires it would be the Baali and other infernalists; in Werewolf it's the BSDs, and various fomors, Nexus Crawlers (okay, so Werewolf has a BUNCH); and in Mage it's the Nephandi.

In other words, whereas there's some room for truces and whatever between Sabbat and Cam under various circumstances, or between Technocracy and Traditions (see WWII)--Nephandi are straight up kill-on-sight enemies. Similarly, it is my understanding from the setting materials that non-infernalist vampires will rarely suffer an infernalist to live. And as I've mentioned, the Garou will basically go full-tilt-crazy-pants at more or less anything that knowingly serves the Wyrm and appreciates how totally effed that is.

But do Changelings have such a thing? The Seelie and Unseelie Courts don't get along, it seems, but appreciate one anothers' place in the overall scheme of things and aren't engaged in some campaign of unrelenting total war against one another. The Thallain and regular Kiths are pretty freakin' at odds with one another, but it still seems like for some non-Thallain changelings, it's fair game to deal with the Thallain sometimes. The Dark-kin also don't seem to be KOS enemies despite having also been subject to the Silver Ban.

So are there any groups in Changeling that are capital-"E"-Evil, such that killing them is justifiable on the basis of their very nature?

[zenten]

That type of question doesn't really make sense in the context of Changeling. Some Changelings are fine with murder, some aren't. Although I'd say that the group most generally thought of as the "bad guys" that you should at least never ever ally with are Autumn People.

[CaptOtter]

Are there no fae corrupted by or otherwise enthralled to the Wyrm? It seems like the super-bad-guys often are, and that most supernatural groups have some splat that is.

[Prince of the Night]

That type of question doesn't really make sense in the context of Changeling. Some Changelings are fine with murder, some aren't. Although I'd say that the group most generally thought of as the "bad guys" that you should at least never ever ally with are Autumn People.

not quite the same thing.

Some autumn people are loving parents trying to teach their children harsh, but to their eyes, neccessary life lesons.

Or Psychiatric professionals, with a good faith desire to "Help these troubled people"

Point is, in most cases changelings will pity a Autumn person, in the same way a garou would pity, a relatively innocent Pentex Employee.

They'll consider them acceptable collateral damage, if neccessary, but wont kill them if it can be avoided.

[Aleph]

I'm no expert, but I imagine that very few Changeling would find hard to justify killing a Nervosa, especially Noctisa. Nasty spider Chimera....I don't know, maybe an Unseelie woud like having these things in their yards, but I imagine at least Seelie would burn them with extreme prejudice.

[Lian]

Well to put things into context: Infernalism is an exitential threat to kindred society. If you let it fester it there basically becomes no kindred society instead of just demon cults with vampires. Changing Breeds are build to protect Gaia their enemies are those who would destroy her, so once more a threat to their existence. Nephandi are once more not a just people who disagree with you violently but those who want to end the world.

So what is the Threat to existence for Kithain? It comes in two directions. Banality and the Formorians. The problem for Kithain is that any killing of Formorian sympathizers and pawns is a win for banality. They are stuck having to balance the situation. They are in a constant state of knowing this and the Formorians are long since almost forgotten things. So Kithain probably consider Autumn Folk to be the only safe targets.

[zenten]

Are there no fae corrupted by or otherwise enthralled to the Wyrm? It seems like the super-bad-guys often are, and that most supernatural groups have some splat that is.

A number of Unseelie explicitly ally with creatures tied to the Wyrm, and even most Seelie wouldn't consider the Wyrm to be the greatest threat.

In extremely simplistic terms with regards to the Triat changings are much more worried about the Weaver than the Wyrm.

[zenten]

not quite the same thing.

Some autumn people are loving parents trying to teach their children harsh, but to their eyes, neccessary life lesons.

Or Psychiatric professionals, with a good faith desire to "Help these troubled people"

Point is, in most cases changelings will pity a Autumn person, in the same way a garou would pity, a relatively innocent Pentex Employee.

They'll consider them acceptable collateral damage, if neccessary, but wont kill them if it can be avoided.

Well, that's why I was talking about their opinions on murder. Lots of changelings are opposed to killing in general, especially innocent people. But they're all going to see Autumn People as a dangerous threat, even if they disagree about what to do about that threat.

[Prince of the Night]

Well, that's why I was talking about their opinions on murder. Lots of changelings are opposed to killing in general, especially innocent people. But they're all going to see Autumn People as a dangerous threat, even if they disagree about what to do about that threat.

Agree that they'd push come to shove, consider acceptable "Collateral damage"

[PookaKnight]

Are there no fae corrupted by or otherwise enthralled to the Wyrm?

From a Changeling: The Dreaming perspective, what's a wyrm? A dragon? Yeah, we got lots of these, went riding on one yesterday.

More seriously to your original question, a Dauntain running around would be bad news for any changeling. Likewise, it probably wouldn't be a good idea for the Kithain to let Thallain go unchecked. Changeling doesn't have a lot of kill on sight enemies though. Killing a creature of dream furthers the cause of Banality. A changeling must weigh the consequences of extinguishing Glamour from the world against the harm those creatures might cause by existing.

[zenten]

Agree that they'd push come to shove, consider acceptable "Collateral damage"

Sure, although going around killing normal people with jobs and families and whatnot is dangerous for any denizen of the World of Darkness, and the Mists only go so far.

[CaptOtter]

So, basically, killing a high-level Technocrat (and I say this for the sake of academic argument--i.e., setting aside whether or to what degree any given changeling could reasonably rely on successfully offing a high-level Technocrat even if they wanted to) who is formally spearheading a project designed to actively and quickly shift sleepers towards a more banal consensus... would probably be cool in the book of any Glamour-fueled being then?

[zenten]

So, basically, killing a high-level Technocrat (and I say this for the sake of academic argument--i.e., setting aside whether or to what degree any given changeling could reasonably rely on successfully offing a high-level Technocrat even if they wanted to) who is formally spearheading a project designed to actively and quickly shift sleepers towards a more banal consensus... would probably be cool in the book of any Glamour-fueled being then?

Modulo pacifism and "OMG you've drawn the attention of *which* group", yes.

But even just high Banality sleepers (sleepers in Mage terms) are going to get a similar response.

[Lian]

So, basically, killing a high-level Technocrat (and I say this for the sake of academic argument--i.e., setting aside whether or to what degree any given changeling could reasonably rely on successfully offing a high-level Technocrat even if they wanted to) who is formally spearheading a project designed to actively and quickly shift sleepers towards a more banal consensus... would probably be cool in the book of any Glamour-fueled being then?

Even a high level technocrat is a theoretical font of Delicious Glamour all they have to do is get burnt just enough by the system, so litterally its always context.

Though Dautain are probably the closest to a Baali/BSD equivalent.

[Firkraag]

In Changeling: the Dreaming death is ponentially not as big of a penalty, as pain and inprisonment.

And boy it can go in flavours, if the Kithain feel like it.

They can built a secret of the shores prison run by hired mortals and some Balors, reinforced with Cold Iron bars. Unless, inmates want to try their luck versus cold iron, they might keep themselves from Undoing for a while.

Or they can put them into a dungeon within the Dreaming, where they slowly loose their mind from the Bedlam. I'm not sure about C20, but in Dreams and Nightmares it works, just as good against Enchanted and Prodigals, as for Changeling.

Neither option requires murder or stands against the Escheat. Also, if majority of Changelings doesn't know or think about it too much, it can't hurt their sensibilities.

So, there's probably is one or two of those. Somewhere.

And less said about medieval torture chambers, the better.

The point is that Kithain need to survive and they are limited in what they can do to defend themselves. And some times worst things imaginable are the best available.

Although, could you use Sovereign to stop creatures (fae, dauntain, mages, fomorian, chimerae?) from hurting/plotting against the Kithain?..