Why are Sluagh and Redcaps Kithain and not Thallain?

[tasti man LH]

So I believe this is *a* question that's been circling the game for awhile but...

Why are the Sluagh and Redcaps considered Kithain and not Thallain?

Regular kithain are considered to be creatures that promote dreams and wonder, while thallain push for nightmares and fear. Sluagh and redcaps seem to fall more in the latter then the former (which is mechanically represented by their Revelries). So what is it that makes them different from the thallain? Or, in another way, why are they less-nightmar-ish then their counterparts the bogies or the ghasts?

(and if this question is already answered in officially material, please direct me to them!)

[Lian]

So I believe this is *a* question that's been circling the game for awhile but...

Why are the Sluagh and Redcaps considered Kithain and not Thallain?

Regular kithain are considered to be creatures that promote dreams and wonder, while thallain push for nightmares and fear. Sluagh and redcaps seem to fall more in the latter then the former (which is mechanically represented by their Revelries). So what is it that makes them different from the thallain? Or, in another way, why are they less-nightmar-ish then their counterparts the bogies or the ghasts?

(and if this question is already answered in officially material, please direct me to them!)

Because your definitions are wrong. Kithain are Dreams and Nightmares. Thallain are Nightmares and primal horror.

[zenten]

Because the Sluagh and Redcap kiths were developed before the concept of Thallain. Also, it wasn't until C20 that the Redcaps had a Thallain version; it's even commented on in Kithbook Redcaps.

*Rolls for Banality trigger*

[Eldagusto]

Slaugh are very gothic and are more neutral in their potential I think.
But...
Redcaps totally should be That is why they weren't initially given a Thallain, hell it would have been cool if they wrote some secret lore that the Redcaps were actually lured over from the Thallain into becoming Kithain proper. They are fun as Kithain, but they are totally Thallain stock, it would be like making a Wendigo Kithain rather then Thallain.

[Jane_Dargason]

Because they are Fear, Hunger, and the Drive for Survival. Fear and Hunger aren't exclusively things of Nightmare, Fear can Drive People to Overcome it and Better themselves or put comment sense needed for survival in order while Hunger can bring out a raw sort of Cleverness and Instinct in order to satiate the need to continue. These things helped Humanity in the Early Days most definitely. Plus both Kiths have significantly evolved since the mythic era.

[Eldagusto]

Yes, but then most of the Thaillain then don't need to be Thallain. I am saying Redcaps work as Kithain, but they would work even better as Thallain, and were clearly the odd man out in the original kithain roster. They were the edgy kith.

And Slaugh seem fine as kithain, many of the Slaugh are portrayed as kind soft spoken Tim Burton characters, they aren't necessarily sinister just odd.

[zenten]

Heck, while the C20 writeup certainly goes that way, not all the Thallain really have to be Thallain. Ogres for instance are a bit less nightmarish than redcaps.

[tasti man LH]

Because your definitions are wrong. Kithain are Dreams and Nightmares. Thallain are Nightmares and primal horror.

Ok...then what's your definition of "primal horror" and how does it apply to the Thallain? And how that differentiates them from sluagh and redcaps?

Because the Sluagh and Redcap kiths were developed before the concept of Thallain. Also, it wasn't until C20 that the Redcaps had a Thallain version; it's even commented on in Kithbook Redcaps.

*Rolls for Banality trigger*

...ok fair enough. If it's something changed for C20 that wasn't in 1e or 2e, not much you can do.

Still haven't gone through the Redcap kithbook yet, although I hear it's pretty good. Currently still neck-deep juggling between my backer copy of Wraith20, DtD's Enemy Action, and BtP's Player's Guide.

Slaugh are very gothic and are more neutral in their potential I think.
But...
Redcaps totally should be That is why they weren't initially given a Thallain, hell it would have been cool if they wrote some secret lore that the Redcaps were actually lured over from the Thallain into becoming Kithain proper. They are fun as Kithain, but they are totally Thallain stock, it would be like making a Wendigo Kithain rather then Thallain.

Oh absolutely. I do think there would be an interesting story to tell on the circumstances of the redcaps being inducted into the Kithain. Perhaps even do it as a PC redcap's character arc, where he and his kin are being threatened to get kicked out of a freehold/duchy due to misconceptions on their entire kith, and now they need to go on a Quest into the Dreaming to prove their kith's ultimate loyalty to Arcadian society.

With sluagh though...well, there is that bit on their Revelry on how they gain Glamour from scaring people. And whether you hold the story at the beginning of the sluagh kithbook to be true or not, their propensity for fear had to come from SOMEWHERE. That nothing is stopping them from creating fear in others again if they so choose to...

[Nyrufa]

Yes, but then most of the Thaillain then don't need to be Thallain. I am saying Redcaps work as Kithain, but they would work even better as Thallain, and were clearly the odd man out in the original kithain roster. They were the edgy kith.

And Slaugh seem fine as kithain, many of the Slaugh are portrayed as kind soft spoken Tim Burton characters, they aren't necessarily sinister just odd.

Also considering that the original Redcaps would dye their clothes in the blood of their victims before eventually abandoning that tradition in favor of just wearing red garments.

Real world mythology states that the redcap's life force is tied to the vibrancy of their caps. If they allowed the color to fade, they would in turn grow weaker and eventually die. That means these fuckers are going around murdering people on a nearly constant basis just to keep their hats fresh!


Also, I agree that the Sluagh are fine where they are. Looking creepy and communicating entirely in whispers is not ground for being labeled as a harbinger of chaos.

[zenten]

Also considering that the original Redcaps would dye their clothes in the blood of their victims before eventually abandoning that tradition in favor of just wearing red garments.
.

I was under the impression in Changeling that most redcaps still follow that tradition, although most don't use wool hats anymore.

[Nyrufa]

I was under the impression in Changeling that most redcaps still follow that tradition, although most don't use wool hats anymore.

I don't know about previous editions, but C20 states that they abandoned the practice and took to simply wearing a red article of clothing now.

[tasti man LH]

I was under the impression in Changeling that most redcaps still follow that tradition, although most don't use wool hats anymore.

According to C20...no, it doesn't look like it.

C20 p.100

Named for the bright red caps they used to dip in the blood of their enemies, redcaps long ago gave up such quaint beginnings.

Even then considering the implications about how "redcaps have to periodically kill people and/or draw blood from their enemies otherwise they die"...yeah I'd rather not saddle players with that. Especially since the byline with WoD is to movie away from the mandatory murder hobo-ing common to D&D.

[zenten]

See, to me the WoD is all about playing monsters.

[tasti man LH]

See, to me the WoD is all about playing monsters.

And it should ultimately be up to the players on what kind of monster they want to play as.

That they shouldn’t have to be the type of monster that regularly kills people because the game says so.

[zenten]

And it should ultimately be up to the players on what kind of monster they want to play as.

That they shouldn’t have to be the type of monster that regularly kills people because the game says so.

But it should be left as an option. Heck, one of the other games (Werewolf) has killing as basically still required, or at least a pacifist Werewolf would be considered odd.