When does a Chimera become a Fae?

[Eldagusto]

I see what you are getting at but by my point of view disbelief is a type of belief so I don't think its really an opposite theory.

[Luisarmander]

Not Quite, Echoes were humanity's doing and it seemed to be an Antithesis of Oaths. Banality is the belief of humans turned against the Fae and Glamour is the belief of humanity reaped for the benefit of the Fae.

I have quite the opposite theory...

Echoes are born from belief. Mortals were still in touch with the Dreaming, and it fueled their little rituals of protection against the Fae. Yes, Fae found that uncomfortable and annoying, but it was not as destructive as Banality would become.

Even the "baptism" thing was a thing of belief. After all, it was the only instance in which Fae were affected by Faith...

[Eldagusto]

Eh like I said before, it's kinda iffy to say Dark Age: Fae and Changeling: The Dreaming are actually the same. Banality was the reason for the Shattering, not Echoes.. which is something purely from DA:F.

You are thinking of things in a manner that needs things to be explicitly spelled out. Banality and Echoes seem to be symptoms of more fundamental Fae/Human laws. They are not two completely unrelated phenomena. Hence why the Vault book, Countless Dreams tie in the Mage's of the Technocracies Anthropic Principle, basically sleepers causing paradox due to consensus backlash, as Anthropic Radiation, their paradigms version of Banality. Its all tied together. The Uniformity of the Changeling Way Ritual after the Shattering mostly banished the occurrence of Echoes and replaced them with Banality, at the same time the Mists were just the impossible/Primordial/Undefined aspect of the Universe. After the Shattering it stopped manifesting more or less in the Material World and only existed on the level of reality one touches upon almost exclusively by dreaming.

[Shakanaka]

Eh like I said before, it's kinda iffy to say Dark Age: Fae and Changeling: The Dreaming are actually the same. Banality was the reason for the Shattering, not Echoes.. which is something purely from DA:F.

[Prometheas]

Not Quite, Echoes were humanity's doing and it seemed to be an Antithesis of Oaths. Banality is the belief of humans turned against the Fae and Glamour is the belief of humanity reaped for the benefit of the Fae.

Actually, very quite. One of the things humans learned to do with their mastery of echoes was the ability baptize changelings(the DA fae version) so that they lost their fae half. While most fae regarded this as tragic, a few enterprising fae found that this process would leave a "spiritual hole" that they found they could use to turn these people into what were essentially anti-fae nukes and used them in warfare against each other.

The problem with this was that they ended up tainting the entire western world with echoes to the point that they caused the shattering to happen.

[Eldagusto]

This has been gone over in one of the changeling books. The Modern changelings are a result of DA Fae abusing echoes as anti-Fae weapons on each other, to the point that things spiral out of control and they end up loosing most of their power as the "background radiation" sets in.

Banality is essentially a curse that the ancient fae brought on themselves from abusing a weapon they didn't fully understand.

Not Quite, Echoes were humanity's doing and it seemed to be an Antithesis of Oaths. Banality is the belief of humans turned against the Fae and Glamour is the belief of humanity reaped for the benefit of the Fae.

[Prometheas]

Saining is a crucial part of being a Changeling, my theory is Kiths are artificial and a post shattering invention stabilizing Fae into Kith archetypes. Some of the books describe Chimera as being more awake and real through their connection with Changelings. Like Chimerical Companions have some sort of Awakening when a companion. In my games I have Chimera able to swear an oath of Fealty/Citizenship to Changelings to become citizens of Kingdoms and Duchies and the like. So Changelings have a level of dynamism potential and power that chimera don’t have and it’s a godlike feat to uplift them purposely. Kiths of Arcadia by Charlie Cantrel has Renegade Cogs which are newly made one off Changelings that are essentially constructs that accidentally became Changelings. In an interview he did mention they don’t reincarnate though so they need some more off to be more then transistory.

This has been gone over in one of the changeling books. The Modern changelings are a result of DA Fae abusing echoes as anti-Fae weapons on each other, to the point that things spiral out of control and they end up loosing most of their power as the "background radiation" sets in.

Banality is essentially a curse that the ancient fae brought on themselves from abusing a weapon they didn't fully understand.

[Eldagusto]

Saining is a crucial part of being a Changeling, my theory is Kiths are artificial and a post shattering invention stabilizing Fae into Kith archetypes. Some of the books describe Chimera as being more awake and real through their connection with Changelings. Like Chimerical Companions have some sort of Awakening when a companion. In my games I have Chimera able to swear an oath of Fealty/Citizenship to Changelings to become citizens of Kingdoms and Duchies and the like. So Changelings have a level of dynamism potential and power that chimera don’t have and it’s a godlike feat to uplift them purposely. Kiths of Arcadia by Charlie Cantrel has Renegade Cogs which are newly made one off Changelings that are essentially constructs that accidentally became Changelings. In an interview he did mention they don’t reincarnate though so they need some more off to be more then transistory.

[Gryffon15]

No worries! Glad I was able to help!

[Damian May]

See also Lycians in the C20 Players Guide for Chimera that are approaching the Changeling state from a different angle.

[Shakanaka]

Ah, now I get. Thanks for clearing it up!

[Gryffon15]

Dark Ages: Fae is radically different but that’s because it’s set prior to the Shattering and thus the nature of Fae existence was radically different then it is in the modern day. It’s a case of how Fae history has progressed and the Fae themselves have adapted.

All Fae are ultimately native to the Dreaming and through the primordial fae (Elder Dark & Enlightened Ones; Fomorians & Tuatha, Titans & Olympians, etc.) who produced the firstborn. These firstborn fae then either moved closer towards humanity after the Sundering began and would eventually become the thallain & kithain or they moved closer towards the Dreaming after the Sundering began and would eventually become the Denizens, who do more closely resemble the original firstborn then modern changelings do.

The Thallain & Kithain are firstborn fae who underwent the Changeling Way to maintain their proximity to earth and material existence. They went down a different evolutionary path then Denizens but they ultimately have the same origins amongst the firstborn generated by the Elder Dark first and afterwards the Enlightened Ones.

[Shakanaka]

I thought any Fae that's native to the Dreaming only and never went under the Changing Way is a Denizen (True Fae)? Aren't the Firstborn (aka general Fae Gods such as the Fomorians and Tuatha) the ones who made the regular Fae? D:AF when I read it seemed like a slightly alternate take on Changeling than C:TD itself because it had wildly different mechanics and lore.

[Gryffon15]

Generally speaking it seems to be that Fae develop over time as chimerical forms congrate into firstborn entities which can then further transition into Denizens, and Kithain or Thallain depending on their allegiances and preference for Dream Glamour or Nightmare Glamour.

Changelings as they exist currently are adaptions from the firstborn of F: DA who because of the progression of the Sundering and eventual Shattering were forced to flee into Arcadia or undergo the Changeling Way en masse.

It seems from the Wolpertinger that great torrents of glamour can trigger the transition but I think it would be more accurate to say that when a dreamed concept aggregates enough concentrated attention to develop an individual form and propagate forward it has the capacity to develop into a kith.

[Shakanaka]

Yea but D:AF is a slightly different universe than CTD. Though this is an interesting concept to incorporate into CTD, maybe nobles would be able to Sain Chimera into Fae.. but though I really doubt it however. This feat seems like something Fae Gods would be able to do, not regular Fae.

This is kinda covered in C20 where Wolpertinger were once Chimera but have become Fae, the Resurgence allowing their transition from Chimera to Kith.

Ah, this is great info to read later.

EDIT: This Fae seems to be in the simple "Other Kith" section all the way in the back of the book. The blurb on them is very sparse. How popular in folklore or common stories could Wolpertingers be to at the time in Germany of the 1969 post-launch of the space-shuttle? Even as little this feat is, it goes some precedence for some Chimera becoming Fae.. but I supposed they'd have to be common ever current Chimera that consistently spawn and aren't one off things from individual imaginings and dreams.