C20 African Kiths, and some questions

[Windthin]

I can clear up the mystery behind some of those extra Kiths listed on that site; I created them. I didn't add them to that page. I don't know who did. But a bunch of the extra Kiths listed are mine: Mami Wata, Izimu, Kinyonga, Kozo, Mino, Minona, Yumboes, Curupira, Iara, Iwarrika (or Ozomatli), and Muki are all some of my creations. Odd thing is, these seem to be kind of randomly taken from different points during the creative process, rather than just, say, early on. By now I've created nearly 200 Kiths, some obscure and regional, others widespread, across all the different groups. I can't tell you why these were put on that list, but I can tell you that my work is the source of them, and if you look them up you'll find they come from a wide array of myth and legend (though Kinyonga is just a word for chameleon based on tales of chameleons from a variety of Bantu cultures).

Ironically, I found this thread while seeking some origin for the Okubili, who are about the only book Kith so far I can't track down to any specific legend.

[Anteros]

I don't think I saw that Kith in there. I may have missed an update of the PDF file, I guess?

[Damian May]

Are Mami Wata a Kith now? If yes, which book are they in?

C20 Players Guide.....if my memory is correct. Away from my books currently.

[Anteros]

I'm so glad that C20 introduced more Kiths to non-Western cultures/dreams. But all I know about Changeling and the Kiths comes from the Unofficial White Wolf Wiki, and some forum interaction.

1. Would someone please give a brief description (or links to such) of the Kiths that don't have functional (blue) links on this list: ?
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Kith_(WOD)

2. Now that there're more in Africa than just the Eshu, what about the Oba? Are they still a subset of the Eshu 'Kith', or are they a separate 'Kith' analogous to the Sidhe?

3. Do the vague groupings of 'Kiths' outside of Europe have collective names analogous to Kithain and Nunnehi? I can't consider Eshu a valid name for non-Eshu African 'Kiths', for example. For that matter, are there words for non-Kithain 'Kith'-equivalents?

4. Mami Wata: Why aren't they Water Inanimae? And are there any specific names or regional variations for the different Phyla outside of Europe?

5. Is there an African Kith of dreams of heat, desert mirages, and thirst, analogous to Redcaps? Should there be?

Are Mami Wata a Kith now? If yes, which book are they in?

[Damian May]

With Nunnehi, I wouldn't necessarily replace the name, but rather add a dozen additional names used by different families. That's just my approach, though.

Thats how I do it in my chronicles, yeah.

[Eldagusto]

This is one of the things I complained about we need more fictional languages. I wasn’t sure how many I should have though, so I did introduce some for certain Banner Houses claiming origins outside Arcadia. Maybe we should have something like High Arcadian, Undertongue “made popular from the lost realm of Underbridge” Deepcant for the Thallain and Atlantean for the Mer. The Inanimae should have a Language for each element!

[Erinys]

Fera of course have their own languages, but these aren't always pronounceable in Homid form, or learnable by their Kinfolk. More importantly, I couldn't pronounce them or write them with Latin letters.

Also, why don't the various Fae have their own languages? What form does language even take in the ever-shifting Dreaming? It isn't necessarily anything like human languages, especially for beings essentially in perpetual Bedlam.

[Eldagusto]

That’s my approach add regional variants rather then replace the names. The basic rub of the names meaning, the people who live everywhere is solid and evocative, if you don’t want to use Nunnehi then just auto translate that to English or whatever language.

As for Fera words technically they are supposed to be prehistoric Fera language words that humans had incepted into their language. Except for terms like Homid which are modern.

But if Fae are real and they are ancient then I don’t see why they would need to follow the exact language and cultural rules of each regions humans, instead I treat them as a shadow culture of their own, hence why the term Medicine and Nunnehi are recognized by them even if they spread to foreign lands, it’s a truth of the world and metaphysics they recognize.

[Erinys]

With how recently (relatively) the Bantu cultures spread out in Africa, there may be a concept that's widespread among those cultures, or at least a word widespread among them. If we assume that a name originated in one ancient human language, such as Proto-[Bantu] and then spread out over the centuries, each linguistic descendant of that word could be in use by changelings, even if it retains no meaning for any humans. This is my current approach to Swahili and southern African names for Changing-Breeds and Bastet tribes. The words they borrow from human languages aren't 20th-century translations, they're ancient words invented millennia ago and evolved along with the languages.

With Nunnehi, I wouldn't necessarily replace the name, but rather add a dozen additional names used by different families. That's just my approach, though.

[Damian May]

I’d rather have Nunnehi as the name the. Give them a super generic and unflavored name like Spirit beings though. Same with calling it Medicine even if it’s not universal a concept. I liked the idea of secret truths of the world that leaks into different cultures.

Understood. Its just alien to the way I play to put game jargon overwriting culture as I would see it drive the other direction. But we all do things differently I guess.

[Eldagusto]

Its the main reason Spirit Beings was chosen for the Australian ' kiths', the Nunnehi one really needs changing as well but its a bit late for that. But I tend to go with folklore over gamelore with my CtD chronicles so I'm probably not the general audience.

I’d rather have Nunnehi as the name the. Give them a super generic and unflavored name like Spirit beings though. Same with calling it Medicine even if it’s not universal a concept. I liked the idea of secret truths of the world that leaks into different cultures.

[Damian May]

You aren't going to get a uniform term that applies to them all so Orisha is just as suitable a name as any other. Nunnehi after all covers at least one whole continent, in 1st ed they talked about them also including South America.

Its the main reason Spirit Beings was chosen for the Australian ' kiths', the Nunnehi one really needs changing as well but its a bit late for that. But I tend to go with folklore over gamelore with my CtD chronicles so I'm probably not the general audience.

[marin]

Darn dang link parser. Add the ) to the end of the URL and it'll work again.

Thank you all for the info.
2. It seems there isn't agreement about what the Oba ought to be, but mechanically are they the same as Eshu or separate?

Their C20 writeup focuses only on after their coronation, no mention of them being identical to the Eshu beforehand, so they get the Mantle of the Orishas Birthright (the Arcadian sidhe's Awe and Beauty/Unearthly Beauty), the Tale Craft Birthright (same as the Eshu), and the Native Soil Frailty (unique to them).

[Eldagusto]

Yeah the Nunnehi even doubles up and uses an alternate spelling the Nanehi as a specific Kith. But regardless of the language the meaning of omnipresent folk is a fitting name.

The Eshu Book expands much of how Preplayersguide works. Including regional names for the kiths. But why the Eshu work for the Continent is because they are the Travelers Kith and they spread far and quick and would be a commonality for the Continent early on. Oba is just the Kings of the Eshu and the Eshu kind of were described being a big family with the other kiths.

I like the Djedi, but it feels like they could have use an actual type of being rather then just choosing a specific legendary figure and saying he was just one of many.

[Erinys]

And Nunnehi is just a Cherokee name, right? There's be no inherent reason it has any meaning outside the southeastern cultures.

It seems odd to me that there isn't a more widespread African 'kith' incarnating dreams of kings and other rulers. The idea of monarchy is as much a thing among some/many Africans as it is in Europe, though not universal. Surely there are some commonalities to what makes a legitimate/ideal/legendary king, even though African royalty haven't necessarily all been screwing each other strategically allying their dynasties for the last millennium. But the Oba are specific to just one culture. I think they might make more sense as a house.

On the other hand, maybe the Kithain only have a shared name for themselves (at least in western Europe) because they have been ruled by the Sidhe and kind of united in one meta-society. And yet some Sidhe houses and other Kiths have their own words for Fae and Changeligns in general, according to the wiki.