Victims of Sidhe and Denizen body-snatchers: Lost-style Changelings?

[Observer]

[Edit: I just realized I didn't read the quote closely enough. It doesn't say the fae spirit fuses with the mortal soul. It says it fuses with the "host's mortality" without displacing their soul. I think this actually makes it worse - the Changeling seems to push aside the mortal soul and seize control of the body, but the soul isn't displaced. That sounds like the mortal sound is essentially imprisoned in its own body. Perhaps it is in some kind of fairy delerium because of the Mists. This could mean anything, but one possibility is the person is trapped in their own little fairy "world" similar to a dream.]

There is definitely a human soul in there, not just a Fae one. I don't, however, think they reincarnate together -- it was implied way back in 1st Edition that they acquire a new human host with every new incarnation. (And in my mind, at least, that could account for the potentially vast differences in personality and dynamic changes in who the Changeling can become, between lifetimes... you aren't 'stuck' as the same person every life.)

We've always played it as a symbiosis -- not a 'fusion', but not exactly separate like a Mage and Avatar. More that, if you are a commoner, you have a cohabiting soul that you've had since before birth, and have never known any different. You don't know what parts of you are from your mortal side and which from your Fae, because you've influenced each other as far back as you can remember.

(Side note: I even recall reading that the mortal Seemings of Changelings often tend to resemble the Fae Seeming -- i.e, sluagh tending towards short and slender, and nockers towards being ruddy, which I would take as the physical manifestation of that influence, though it doesn't explicitly say so. I just tend to look for logical consistencies in a game.)

As far as what happens to the mortal soul of sidhe body-snatching victims... in 2nd Edition it left quite a metaphysical problem with the idea of the souls being taken back to Arcadia. IIRC, in Dreams and Nightmares, because the human souls of Changelings contain Banality, they cannot enter the Deep Dreaming without leaving it scorched and smoking in their wake. How, then, can a purely human soul be free enough of Banality to make it to Arcadia, where even Changelings can't go?

It doesn't make sense, so I would tend to think the 'souls of the sidhe's human victims go to Arcadia' is a myth made up by the sidhe to assuage any hostility and guilt their 'takeovers' might incite....

[Luisarmander]

That's really interesting! Are the cards and interpretations on that blog from the official Arcadia cards, or later fan-work sets?

I've always had the impression that only the Arcadian Sidhe method, and possibly the Mer method, actually boot out the human soul. I always believed the Changeling Way created a fused soul, a symbiosis where the two sides are no longer separate and both are in control simultaneously, and they reincarnate together. The idea of the mortal soul trapped in their body but unable to act is pretty horrific.

I've always thought something similar
Sidhe/Denizen method boots the human soul so that the fae soul can take its place.
Mer/Selkie doesn't kick the soul out, but if they are not raised "properly", they risk Bedlam from the opposing worldviews. That's the reason Selkies take pains to make sure their skin is inherited by a worthy kinain, while all Mer are raised from childhood waiting for Vatea's favor.
The other kithain, by contrast, are born with a fae soul instead of a human one. They don't "kick out" the human owner, but take possession of an available body from birth.

[Konradleijon]

That's really interesting! Are the cards and interpretations on that blog from the official Arcadia cards, or later fan-work sets?

I've always had the impression that only the Arcadian Sidhe method, and possibly the Mer method, actually boot out the human soul. I always believed the Changeling Way created a fused soul, a symbiosis where the two sides are no longer separate and both are in control simultaneously, and they reincarnate together. The idea of the mortal soul trapped in their body but unable to act is pretty horrific.

It’s official , from the card game, through its questionable if it’s cannon to the RPG

Yeah , I would love to see more of it, like maybe a Night Horors style book? I think OWOD line could need Night horror books the dreaming one having Autumn people, Thallain,Chimera, Changlings and erct,

Like we could get a few different kinds of Autumn people, ones a Silicon Valley tech bro that treats his employees like shit,

They could have one of those Fae vampires from the Sabbat.

[FallenEco]

I was under the impression that the Keremet were 'just' the fae escorting the Tithed Ones (which is their official ooc name in the Time of Judgement book) to Arcadia. Not that the humans were turned into keremet.
That is less interesting to me.

[Konradleijon]

That's really interesting! Are the cards and interpretations on that blog from the official Arcadia cards, or later fan-work sets?

I've always had the impression that only the Arcadian Sidhe method, and possibly the Mer method, actually boot out the human soul. I always believed the Changeling Way created a fused soul, a symbiosis where the two sides are no longer separate and both are in control simultaneously, and they reincarnate together. The idea of the mortal soul trapped in their body but unable to act is pretty horrific.

It’s official , from the card game, through its questionable if it’s cannon to the RPG

Yeah , I would love to see more of it, like maybe a Night Horors style book? I think OWOD line could need Night horror books the dreaming one having Autumn people, Thallain,Chimera, Changlings and erct,

Like we could get a few different kinds of Autumn people, ones a Silicon Valley tech bro that treats his employees like shit,

They could have one of those Fae vampires from the Sabbat.

[Erinys]

Mummy 2e has a section on “Other Mummies”, including the Cabiri, who use Greek terminology for the parts of the soul:

Eidolon: Ka
Psyche: Ba
Pneuma: Sekhem
Theourgia: Hekau
Hades: Amenti

So that addresses two of them: Eidolon is Ka, and Psyche is Ba. My take is that Sahu would be the seat of Faith; and if the Avatar is part of the soul, that's likely where you'll find it (unless it's associated with the Ren?). Meanwhile, I'd associated Glamour with the Ab.

This surprises me. I thought that in Wraith, the Eidolon was equivalent to the Avatar and Sahu, and the Ka was said to be noticeable only in the Drones.


Edit: Also, is Tithed Ones the name for the displaced mortal souls in the Dreaming? That is, the ones who don't become Keremet?

[Erinys]

That's really interesting! Are the cards and interpretations on that blog from the official Arcadia cards, or later fan-work sets?

I've always had the impression that only the Arcadian Sidhe method, and possibly the Mer method, actually boot out the human soul. I always believed the Changeling Way created a fused soul, a symbiosis where the two sides are no longer separate and both are in control simultaneously, and they reincarnate together. The idea of the mortal soul trapped in their body but unable to act is pretty horrific.

[MythAdvocate]

This is talked about in the Arcadia card game https://arcadiaccg.wordpress.com/201...ng-card-notes/

But I also like them because they bring an element of Changeling: The Dreaming into Arcadia. Changeling is not about the fae’s innocence and magical charm (as is often wrongly thought), but rather about their lost innocence and fading charm. They live in a world of Banality, and are constantly assailed by forgetfulness of their fae identity. They long for a world they can never find again, one they can remember only in the vaguest sense, and their search for survival has led them to various extremes–escapism, exploitation, denial, despair, corruption, conflict. They are creatures of two conflicting worlds, and struggle to live in harmony with both.

This is marvelous. This needs C20 treatment. Arcadian Dreamers with appropriately powerful Arts.

[Konradleijon]

That is why I said thematically solid. In that it lends itself to a storytelling rhythm that suggests further stories. Definitions change SO MUCH depending on the splat that it gets pretty pointless to seek consistency. But it does keep the rules lawyers busy.

For my Storytelling use, I treat Dynamic and Questing Avatars as potential targets for Chimera and Changelings (requiring high Kenning to perceive), that can be attacked or otherwise affected by cantrips. In a home campaign, Aelida, the Lady of Feathers (an Oneiroi in my games) has a collection of favorite Mage Avatars as prisoners/pets, kept in the forms of songbirds. This is not meant as a cruelty, she keeps them "safe" because she adores the songs they make. This was part of a plot for a crossover game (Two Changelings, a Nuwisha and a Hermetic Mage).

Of course, the Sorcerers Crusade example would be best to reflect the Commoner Changelings, who established kinain families. But the Arcadian Sidhe? I think that is a nastier sort of thing.

Dreaming or Chimerical Mortals, would be a great addition to the game.

This is talked about in the Arcadia card game https://arcadiaccg.wordpress.com/201...ng-card-notes/

But I also like them because they bring an element of Changeling: The Dreaming into Arcadia. Changeling is not about the fae’s innocence and magical charm (as is often wrongly thought), but rather about their lost innocence and fading charm. They live in a world of Banality, and are constantly assailed by forgetfulness of their fae identity. They long for a world they can never find again, one they can remember only in the vaguest sense, and their search for survival has led them to various extremes–escapism, exploitation, denial, despair, corruption, conflict. They are creatures of two conflicting worlds, and struggle to live in harmony with both.

[MythAdvocate]

Eh, it is Mage metaphysic's explanation; it could be invalidated by consensus. How Arcana worked differed from Sorcerers Crusade to (modern) Ascension. No reason the crossover material would stay consistant.
Still not a bad idea though.

The old House Danaan write up said their duty included the transit of the changeling's human soul and barring the side from returning to Arcadia proper. It was riffering on the ideas found in the Time of Judgement. IIRC it was supposed to be cut content.
So we can use that if we want. Someone had to create and cast the Changeling Way and it seems to an Unseelie move. So the 'good' Unseelie House is a decent choice.

That is why I said thematically solid. In that it lends itself to a storytelling rhythm that suggests further stories. Definitions change SO MUCH depending on the splat that it gets pretty pointless to seek consistency. But it does keep the rules lawyers busy.

For my Storytelling use, I treat Dynamic and Questing Avatars as potential targets for Chimera and Changelings (requiring high Kenning to perceive), that can be attacked or otherwise affected by cantrips. In a home campaign, Aelida, the Lady of Feathers (an Oneiroi in my games) has a collection of favorite Mage Avatars as prisoners/pets, kept in the forms of songbirds. This is not meant as a cruelty, she keeps them "safe" because she adores the songs they make. This was part of a plot for a crossover game (Two Changelings, a Nuwisha and a Hermetic Mage).

Of course, the Sorcerers Crusade example would be best to reflect the Commoner Changelings, who established kinain families. But the Arcadian Sidhe? I think that is a nastier sort of thing.

Dreaming or Chimerical Mortals, would be a great addition to the game.

[FallenEco]

In the old Sorcerers Crusade line, the Changeling Way switches a fae spirit with a persons Avatar (Daemon, Enlightened Genius, etc). This always felt thematically solid to me.

Eh, it is Mage metaphysic's explanation; it could be invalidated by consensus. How Arcana worked differed from Sorcerers Crusade to (modern) Ascension. No reason the crossover material would stay consistant.
Still not a bad idea though.

The old House Danaan write up said their duty included the transit of the changeling's human soul and barring the side from returning to Arcadia proper. It was riffering on the ideas found in the Time of Judgement. IIRC it was supposed to be cut content.
So we can use that if we want. Someone had to create and cast the Changeling Way and it seems to an Unseelie move. So the 'good' Unseelie House is a decent choice.

[Dataweaver]

Arcadian Sidhe suffer double the normal Banality as other Kiths, Autumn Sidhe included.

[Black Fox]

I was doing some research on Keremets (essentially fae that are Enchanted Wraiths, one of the Adhene/Denizens) and came across something of relevance here.

On the White Wolf Wiki, it mentions that an elite group of Keremets - the Soul Bearers, who are oathbound to the two Courts - are charged with ferrying the human souls displaced by the Sidhe (when they inhabit a human body) back to Arcadia. This is also mentioned in a section on the Black Paths of Balor although I don't know why these Paths would be used to ferry a human soul from the Autumn World to Arcadia - maybe just because its a soul without a body? This should be in the description for Keremets in Denizens of the Dreaming for anyone who wants to look it up.

It doesn't say what happens to the souls once they get there, but they seem to be sent there.

Are the Sidhe treated any differently in terms of Banality when it takes them over? Or is it the same as for other Kiths? That may have interesting implications if a Sidhe's banality overwhelms her, and her mortal personality takes over.

[MythAdvocate]

In the old Sorcerers Crusade line, the Changeling Way switches a fae spirit with a persons Avatar (Daemon, Enlightened Genius, etc). This always felt thematically solid to me.

[Konradleijon]

In the LARP book the Piskies are the souls of People the Changlings body snatched, and it doesn’t make since at all since everyone who has done the Changling way involves kicking the human soul out instead of merging with it. Not just the Sidhe, and logically Since Piskies also go through the Changling way which means there souls should become Piskies, and so on until the World of Darkness is filled with Piskies.