Mage Changeling Crossover Discussion!

[Eldagusto]

Of all the gamelines I think Mage and Changeling would fit the most seemlessly together even in a combined group. So what would be the pros and cons of running a Changeling Mage Crossover game? What about using the previous edition Enchanted Rules and have the Mages as Kinain, so they will be able to see chimerical reality and could even pic up Arts. What are the of things that you could do when Mage Spheres/Pillars combine with Fae Arts towards the same goal? Kinain or Enchanted Mages feel like they could fit say a Kithain Motley perhaps even better then say Inanimae or Adhene. And one of the big things is they both have a vested interest in bringing magic back to the world. More numinous wonder could smooth the consensus and the local banality.


Mages can perform coincidental magic that make help lower the disbelief and banality in mortals, and Fae Arts can help usher in Mythic Strands which broadens what is considered coincidental in areas. Fae Arts with the right realms can even be cast to boost magical effects, and the same with Magick cast to help Cantrips. And I would imagine Unleashing would temporarily have some sort of beneficial effect on countering or synchronizing the immediate consensus, though it could also make magick go haywire if the Changeling looses control. Not to mention the synchronization between the Countless and Etherites and Void Engineers or Dreamspeaker and Nunnehi/Menehune/Inanimae!

[Actual_Table]

I've done a little bit of thinking about changelings and mage, and I think it would be really cool to have mind partially work like spirit, maybe require it. The first dot would let you see into the dreaming, second dot would allow you to communicate into it, and the third dot could allow you to exist in both sides, though with the downside of looking like you're in the middle of a larp with invisible foes.

If I ran a crossover game, I think I'd prefer to have everyone just use the sphere plus arete system, and maybe let the changelings use Dataweaver's composite spheres for orphans, plus appropriate focuses. Have their paradox be treated as banality, and give the players a thaumivore flaw for Glamour flavored quintessence. Freeholds and nodes share a lot of similarities and would make one heck of a sanctum.

If Mages and changelings freely interacted, charms could become very important. Imagine making a pack of magical crayons with matter 2 mind 2 that lock a "Wow, that's wonderful" thought to it, then taking said crayons to the nearest technocrat construct and start doodling.

[kalinara]

I think the supplement Isle of the Mighty talks about both Mage and Changeling in the context of the British Isles. I don't remember for sure, but there might be some crossover rules there that could be helpful.

[baakyocalder]

Isle of the Mighty doesn't have crossover rules for Changeling and Mage. It's mostly a Changeling book, with some mages mentioned, a few mages statted out, and a couple of lightly-described chantries.

Notable among those chantries is Fellowship Hall, near Bath, England. Fellowship Hall gets less than a page--and it is an ancient chantry where the Cult of Ecstasy and satyrs gather.

Combat crossover in a simple form for all lines is found in World of Darkness: Combat.

[Mister_Dunpeal]

As I recall Revised had the option that you could be Fae-blooded and a full mage as one of the merits (the changeling equivalent to Ghouls and Kinfolk basically) and they followed the same principles.

I also think there's enough overlap between 'modern' (as opposed to Dark Ages) changeling that you could have a Kinain 'Orphan' mage whose understanding of magic derived from Fae Catrip arts, for example.

[Eldagusto]

As I recall Revised had the option that you could be Fae-blooded and a full mage as one of the merits (the changeling equivalent to Ghouls and Kinfolk basically) and they followed the same principles.

I also think there's enough overlap between 'modern' (as opposed to Dark Ages) changeling that you could have a Kinain 'Orphan' mage whose understanding of magic derived from Fae Catrip arts, for example.

Oh interesting? Would you just treat it like using Arts and Realms mechanically or just fluff?

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Oh interesting? Would you just treat it like using Arts and Realms mechanically or just fluff?

Well going by the 4 pt Merit from the Revised Rulebook:

Although your character is not a changeling, she’s got their heritage running through her veins — literally. Faerie blood allows her to walk in the Dreaming as if she were fae herself. While doing so exposes her to chimerical attack, it also opens her to a new and wondrous world.

In fae terms, your mage is kinain, a human with some innate Glamour who can learn limited cantrips fueled by her own power. (See Changeling: The Dreaming and The Enchanted for details.
Note that a full mage cannot have a Glamour pool.) If your character is a hedge magician, these cantrips are a wondrous adjunct to your Paths; if she’s an Awakened mage, they are inherent tricks
that are Paradox-free! Her Banality is also quite low (typically two to five) and her presence is often welcome in the courts of the fae. Naturally, this sort of gift carries an obligation to play faerie politics. Nevertheless, it can be a wondrous game.

I think it really depends on how you choose to interpret that relative to the two system's rules. For a kinain mage I always viewed it as 'you have some supernatural potential based on your faerie roots' they just create the effects differently. You might have some innate cantrips (the way a Ghoul mage could have disciplines or a kinfolk mage could have some gifts) but you would emulate Arts/Realms magic through the spheres. The Fae approach to magic would SHAPE how you view those spheres however. Wayfare might be correspondence, Primal being forces, chicanery being mind, etc. Mind you each Realm could cover multiple spheres (Wayfare could also be time, and Primal could cover 'Prime' as well.) Cantrips would in a sense be rotes for a kinain mage.

You could also borrow a page from 'Archaic sorcery' from V20 and have a 'fae-taught' mage character who draws on something like Pillars and Foundations (something Old Faith or Spirit Talkers is probably a good match for the faerie, especially the former.)

Edit: Other ideas

If we follow the Pillar/foundation approach to Mage stuff, You could adapt the Five Realms as Pillars for an 'archaic' mage based on fae knowledge. I'm not sure how you would handle Foundation (one or more of the Realms? Some other more generic concept? Perhaps one of the Domains of Dark Ages Fae? Something more intrinsic to the Faerie nature?)

If you know or have any interest in awakening, it also occurs to me the Acanthus have some obvious ties to 'Faerie-type mages' since that's part of their gimmick.

[baakyocalder]

From M20 Book of Secrets, Fae Blood is a 4-pt Merit.

Systemwise,Banality is 4 or less and you count as Enchanted.You are part of the Changeling world and know stuff about it. The Merit is forbidden for Technomancers, as they have all that Banality.

If going this way, just use Focus to reflect the character's embrace of their Fae heritage.

[Mister_Dunpeal]

I cited the revised one because there were major differences between Revised and Mage 20 when it came to that merit (namely M20 got rid of the possibility of a kinain mage having cantrips at all.) It was the same change they made for Kinfolk Mages (no Gifts for you, and they explicitly stated this) although for some bizarre reason Ghoul Mages still get their benefits (as if somehow being tied down to the Garou culture or Faerie culture was somehow less of a drawback rather than simply being a different one.)

I mean anyone is free to pick whichever version they want as far as the purposes of this thread goes, but I think the revised fits more with the intention of the OP.
That's also why V20's archaic sorcery rules for Ghoul and Revenant mages may be more adaptable here, since one of the 'features' was that magic that emulated 'traditional' vampiric powers could be treated as coincidental. One could adapt that so that cantrips or 'tradtional' faerie magic was also treated as coincidental (or at least, operates under similar constraints, which I think would mean paradox emulates the issues of banality more.)

[HorizonParty2021]

I am certain that I do want to bring in one or two Changeling NPCs to my Mage campaign. With all the other research I'm doing, I am trying to determine an easy process that doesn't mean studying the complex web of relationships between all the Kiths. I would rather just go down the list and say, "This one works.". Then, incorporate one Changeling at a time into the chronicle without worrying about who they are, politically, in Changeling Society.

I am thinking a kid who knows his parents are divorcing, but avoids the thought by Dreaming. Whether or not that makes him a Changeling or just a kid, I don't know yet. Another would be more like a courtier, but using their diplomatic skills to change something in the waking world. They might even play the Traditions and Technocracy off of each other for their advantage, knowing they can return to a hidden realm if it doesn't go as planned.

[Eldagusto]

Interesting. Changelings can trade Treasures for Mage Wonders, and it would be a neat way to kind of have some changeling flavor in a game. Changelings can also perform some rather potent curses or blessings on PC or NPCs of the group, like make a player or Family member bound by a Contract or turn into a wolf every full moon, you get the gist. Or they can help with grand restructuring like making Waterfalls or Forests, especially with Unleashings.

I have Sleepwalkers, or Dreamwalkers, in my home setting. Basically Sleepers ramped up because of their connection to the Periphery (that level of reality associated with inspiration), so this Kid delves into Dreaming to avoid his worries could work as that. Basically I just have them as Dreamers who seem really prone to dreaming up Chimera, both living things like boogeymen and painted dogs, but also things like Winds, Storms, and Polychromatic Starlight. Some of them might channel their daydreams through crayons or something. It was an Idea I was tossing around in a Werewolf the Wild West Game that I had some crossover with Changeling.

[HorizonParty2021]

Interesting. Changelings can trade Treasures for Mage Wonders, and it would be a neat way to kind of have some changeling flavor in a game. Changelings can also perform some rather potent curses or blessings on PC or NPCs of the group, like make a player or Family member bound by a Contract or turn into a wolf every full moon, you get the gist. Or they can help with grand restructuring like making Waterfalls or Forests, especially with Unleashings.

I presume Unleashings cost Glamour, but I will have to find out. I watched Mage The Podcast: Charlie Cantrell, Changeling the Dreaming: 20th Anniversary writer, talks to Terry about the Adhene, Thallain and Dauntain from the world of the Changeling and how to add them to your game. I am going to read about the Dreaming and other basic stuff. Then I will go for one NPC that could be an ally with an agenda and another NPC villain that is more Thallain or Dauntain, sort of Night-Hag.

I have Sleepwalkers, or Dreamwalkers, in my home setting. Basically Sleepers ramped up because of their connection to the Periphery (that level of reality associated with inspiration), so this Kid delves into Dreaming to avoid his worries could work as that. Basically I just have them as Dreamers who seem really prone to dreaming up Chimera, both living things like boogeymen and painted dogs, but also things like Winds, Storms, and Polychromatic Starlight. Some of them might channel their daydreams through crayons or something. It was an Idea I was tossing around in a Werewolf the Wild West Game that I had some crossover with Changeling.

It would seem intuitive that a Dreamer being inspired by Changeling Cantrips could awaken, becoming a Mage. I think I will make some sort of Orphan group that are independent of the Traditions and Technocracy, strongly allied to a group of Changelings.

[Enginseer-42]

I vaguely remember an adventure I played in. We came up against True Fae and my Technocrat basically just walked around poking holes in their nonsense society. "You can't ride giant bugs! Bugs can't get that big without crushing themselves under their own weight." Cue fae just dropping dead.

[Rucun]

The first sorcerer book has some interesting possible connections. The fenians for example, is a lineage of female druids who shapeshift and belive to be descendants of the tuatha de dannan. There is not a single mention to changelings but... I could se a interesting scenario where the fenians are literally a kinain linage that became hedge sorcerers. Actually, frankly, I think hedge sorcerers can be great NPCs in changeling in general. A easy way to make enemies or allies without having to worry a lot about crossover shanenigans.

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Fenian

[HorizonParty2021]

The first sorcerer book has some interesting possible connections. The fenians for example, is a lineage of female druids who shapeshift and belive to be descendants of the tuatha de dannan. There is not a single mention to changelings but... I could se a interesting scenario where the fenians are literally a kinain linage that became hedge sorcerers. Actually, frankly, I think hedge sorcerers can be great NPCs in changeling in general. A easy way to make enemies or allies without having to worry a lot about crossover shanenigans.


https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Fenian

Yes, I started into Changeling and then realized I don't have the time or mental energy to figure out Changeling game mechanics. Fenians fit well. Thanks.