Alternative Hermetics?

[Michael]

What do you think the Hermetic Tradition would look like, had there not been an Ars Magica? Would there even be one?

To expand a little, something always bothered me about the Hermetics. Their paradigm discussion always seemed a little thin; like they're the Western esoteric tradition... except there's not a great deal of discussion of it. They have this house structure which whilst cool feels more like Harry Potter than the Golden Dawn.

Then, I actually read Ars Magica and it kinda made sense. Like, the Order was written with this really quasi-fantasy setting in mind; where the different houses are really more like separate traditions of magic than a unified group. Like, they have a 'hermetic theory' that they more or less agree on, but it's not really expanded on much.

Basically, it now feels like the original creators just lifted the Order from Ars and placed it down in Ascension and called it a day... Which, I get. It makes perfect to carry it over. However, I can't get rid of the feeling that it's really constrained the Tradition since then.

[Dataweaver]

They did. And there was an edition of Ars Magica that tweet setting ever so slightly to bring it more in line with the world of darkness.

The thing is, the original Traditions we're mostly built around archetypes. You had your Martial artist, your priest, your ecstatic, your shaman, your necromancer, your wizard, your mad scientist, your witch, and your hacker. Since then, all of them have been given additional depth. Including, yes, the Order of Hermes.

[Michael]

They did. And there was an edition of Ars Magica that tweet setting ever so slightly to bring it more in line with the world of darkness.

But that was after they'd already created Ascension, and didn't really deal with the Order being... well, not really very 'hermetic' or 'western esoteric'. Like Ars is basically a historical setting with fantasy wizards in it. I'm not saying that it's bad, just not what Ascension really seems to be going for.

The thing is, the original Traditions we're mostly built around archetypes. You had your Martial artist, your priest, your ecstatic, your shaman, your necromancer, your wizard, your mad scientist, your witch, and your hacker. Since then, all of them have been given additional depth. Including, yes, the Order of Hermes.

Sure, but my point is that the Order aren't really an archetype. They're an organisation from a different game that were incorporated into Ascension as if they were an archetype.

[Aleph]

Sure, but my point is that the Order aren't really an archetype. They're an organisation from a different game that were incorporated into Ascension as if they were an archetype.

It's both. If I'm not mistaken, Ars Magica was stated to be (among other things) an attempt to make wizards w/o the "artificial" old DnD limitations to balance them (inhability to use certain weapons and armor, less hp than other humans, etc...)

It really is an archetype, and always was: "You're a Wizard, Harry"

Now. How would the "Disney Merlin" Tradition have looked w/o Ars?. Well, I don't know. Perhaps they would seem like a softer and more multicultural version of the Taftani: Wizened magicians that control fire, ride magic carpets, have magick jewlery, create golems, etc? There are many ways to spin that archetype.

[Dataweaver]

I'm not disagreeing; that's exactly how they started out. It doesn't mean that it was a bad move, or that they need to be scrapped.

[Michael]

It really is an archetype, and always was: "You're a Wizard, Harry"

Sure, but it's never really connected to something real in the same way the other Traditions do. I dunno, they seem different in some way. Like, the other Traditions feel like they wanted an archetype and they actually built up a structure from that, whilst the Order were just transplanted over. There's some handwaving towards Enochian and kabbalah but that's kinda it.

Actually, come to think of it, the Dreamspeakers have a similar issue with carrying over Apocalypse stuff, though for whatever reason, they were more malleable than the Order.

How would the "Disney Merlin" Tradition have looked w/o Ars?.

Actually, the opposite. What would a tradition that was based on the western esoteric tradition look like?

I guess maybe the Solifcati or maybe the Cosians?

[Dataweaver]

Very few of the Traditions started out connected to something “real”; nearly all of them had their ties to real world magical beliefs grafted on after the fact. As is, a lot of people have complaints about dream speakers and verbena representing the Witch and shaman archetypes far more than they do any real world beliefs.

[Dataweaver]

As for what they would look like without their Ars Magica origin, consider Mage: the Awakening.

[Ramnesis]

Sure, but it's never really connected to something real in the same way the other Traditions do.

I don’t know, I have similar issues with the Chorus and Verbena. It would be interesting to take all three of them and build them up from first principles.

[Dataweaver]

And the akashic brotherhood could use some work on being something more than just “the Monks”. I have already mentioned the Dreamspeakers.

[Astromancer]

There were Hermetic Magi. John Dee was a fine example. Among other things he introduced the division ➗ symbol and the equals = sign to the English speaking world. Dee was also the first person to propose teaching ship's navigators math.

Science, or as they called it natural philosophy, didn't fully exclude magic until the late 17th century. Issac Newton was far more a Magus than a scientist. French scientific journals excepted articles on Alchemy until almost the 1750s.

Hermeticism seems to start in the decades after the death of Alexander the Great. The idea was that all humans have a spark of Divinity (in game the Avatar). By developing your inner spark of Divinity you could become godlike or even a god. Apollonisus of Tyana was a real Hermetic Magus who was worshipped as a god.

Hermeticism was real.

[Aleph]

Actually, the opposite. What would a tradition that was based on the western esoteric tradition look like?

I guess maybe the Solifcati or maybe the Cosians?

The Order of Reason it's not a bad place to start such speculation, but you would need more than those two. The Solificati are just alchemy and the Cosians are hyper-focused on the body. You would need to include things like sacred geometry, angelic/demonic summonings, astrology, etc. At the end I think you would find the result looks a lot like the OoH, perhaps with less pointy hats (that were a wrong stereotype IOC anyway)

On a more general note: I think you're mistaken in thinking "wizards" are less *based* than the "mystical orient" or "shamans". I think that depends on how one goes about it.

For instance: I would argue that Akashicks are to Buddhists and Taoists what the Order of Hermes it's to the Golden Down: The first it's "magick kung fu", the latter it's using words of power to summon thunder - in both cases it's taking ideas that do come from real life, but that are considered fantastical. The very name of the Akashicks comes from the Akashic Record, wich it's an invention of "orientalism". Taking all of that in consideration I thin Hermetics can be forgiven for being more fantastical than the real Golden Down.

[HorizonParty2021]

Their emphasis on the power of spoken words lines up well with Forces.

[Isator Levi]

I don’t know, I have similar issues with the Chorus

My first impression of an idea that the Celestial Chorus don't seem connected to something real is that it would be a testament to how effectively Roman Catholicism wiped out Christian denominations with a more mystical bent, or otherwise significantly divergent views about the nature of Jesus.

[Aleph]

I have to mention the introduction of Eliphas Levi's book of "dogma and rituals of high magic".

In concrete, the pages 10-11. It has a list of the powers and privileges of the "wise man" that holds the Clavicles of Solomon in his right hand. You know, it's small realistic stuff like: "Behold God face to face w/o dying and converse with the genii who command the entire celestial army", "rules the elements, stills tempests, cures diseased by the touch and raises the dead", "pronounce those words that paralize and charm serpents". "knows the key of inmortality", "He reigns with all heaven and is served by all hell"...

From a purely aesthetical perspective: very OoH , isn't it? (well, they wish :P ). It does inspire in me the idea of the "Wizard Archetype" seeking absolute power trough research of forbidden knowledge, that's also the archetype of DnD and other fantasy stories.