Alternative Traditions Origins

[Ramnesis]

That would work well, though it does change much of their role in the story. It pushes them away from the subtlest of Mages, general lovers of Unity, etc, and more towards being a heavily Islamic mage faction. I think its a good change as they often felt like a plot device to me, but it dramatically changes their role in the Traditions.

They wouldn't be one of the driving forces of the founding. I'm not sure they'd even want to join the Traditions. If they do it is mostly because of the threat of the [Gabrielites], and even though the Batini could see the distinction between the [Gabrielites] and the Church, that doesn't mean their relationship with the latter is good. I'm not even sure how much they'd be against the Order of Reason if the [Gabrielites] weren't part of it. The Order didn't have a strong anti-religious bent until much later (conveniently right around the time it kicked the Gabrielites out).

[Kakost]

That would work well, though it does change much of their role in the story. It pushes them away from the subtlest of Mages, general lovers of Unity, etc, and more towards being a heavily Islamic mage faction. I think its a good change as they often felt like a plot device to me, but it dramatically changes their role in the Traditions.

They wouldn't be one of the driving forces of the founding. I'm not sure they'd even want to join the Traditions. If they do it is mostly because of the threat of the [Gabrielites], and even though the Batini could see the distinction between the [Gabrielites] and the Church, that doesn't mean their relationship with the latter is good. I'm not even sure how much they'd be against the Order of Reason if the [Gabrielites] weren't part of it. The Order didn't have a strong anti-religious bent until much later (conveniently right around the time it kicked the Gabrielites out).

Well, Islam itself is a religion that "preaches unity", more or less... Im gonna be very direct here. Islam literally says that there will be world peace once everybody is a muslim (but since there are different sects of islam, like Sunni and Shia, this means that everybody must be of THEIR sect of islam).

This is NOT, in any way, very far away from the idea of Unity from the fictional Batini from MtA. This idea of "Unity" is basically imprinted in Islam itself.

And here is why I suggested that there should be a group that would be basically the "islamic Gabrielites", because this idea of Unity on Islam is what goes behind the idea of "Jihad", which is literally "Holy War".

The idea of Jihad is one of the core concepts of islam; without Jihad, there is no Islam.

It's like wanting to be a Christian without believing that Christ is God; if you dont believe that, you're not a Christian. I myself, for example, Im an atheist, but I admire the figure of Christ. But since I dont believe that Jesus is divine, Im just a fan, not a follower.

Likewise, to be a muslim you must adhere to the precets of Jihad.

But here were is the problem: islamic scholars identify 2 types of "Jihad": internal Jihad and external Jihad.

External Jihad CAN apply to "conversion by the sword", if interpreted literally, but it could also be seen as "evangelization".

However, many scholars consider the "internal Jihad" to be even more important, and that's a concept that implies a sort of internal spiritual search.

This "internal Jihad" is probably where the Al I Batin would stand at (in a very very short version of islamic theology and in a very didatic way to convey the overall meaning to you), so that THIS is their view towards "Unity".

And hence why I think it NECESSARY to have a "hardline" faction os islamic Mages who instead adhere to the more literal interpretation of Jihad as meaning "kill anyone that doesnt 100% agree with you", which the Batini view as a completely abhorrent and ignorant view of Islam.

While those changes would indeed turn the Batini into a secret islamic cult rather than the weird(er) Celestial Chorus from the middle east that never officially just simply fused with the rest of the Celestial Chorus *because of reasons*, into a firmly islamic cult, it does not truly change anything else above them. They still seek unity (as does islam in the form of "internal Jihad", which would be an individual spiritual search to get connected with Allah), while still being acceptive of non muslims - historically, in medieval periods islam was far more tolerant than christianism, and for periods of time, muslim scholars would drink from fountains of knowledge coming from christians, jews and even pagans. That changed over the period of islamic decline up towards what we have today where wahabists (sunni) and shias preach some of the most intolerant doctrines of all time, althought there are still some other currents that advocate the same principles of the past (the Sufists for example favor "internal Jihad" far more than "external one", so that would be a good philosophical stance to base the Batini upon).

And in the part of the Batini being subtle, the word "Batin" refers to "hidden" or "occult" (knowledge). That is, it's knowledge that isnt readily avaiable, that one must dedicate himself in order to obtain. I'd count that as being the "subtle ones"; they are the guardians of the secret exoteric knowledge on the middle east. For being secret, they MUST be subtle.

So, I would say that the Batini could be the Sufis of Islam - or be connected to it, or influence over it, or perhaps the Batini are the "secret masters" of Sufism. And still having the ideology of "Unity" and still be open to anyone that share in their view of unity and still being the subtle ones.

But again, there should also be the "islamic gabrielites"

By the way, the archangel Gabriel is even more important to Islam than to christianism itself, since he is the one that brought the revelation to Mohamed. Therefore, the Cabal of the Pure Thought claiming to work on behalf of Gabriel would be totally Haram (sinful) to a group of islamic mages zealots, and I can see those declaring war against both the Kafirs (infidels) of the Order of Reason as to the pagans in the Traditions.

But the Batini could perfectly way join the traditions, particularly because I can see them getting in conflict with the zealots (even more than anything else, since it were that islamic zealotry that ultimately cause the end of the islamic golden age and their subsequent decline)

[Kakost]

In real life, islam entered a steady decline between the 14th century up the 17th century. And the reason was due to simple cultural changes. As in before, the islamic scholars translated Plato, Socrates and many other greek, egyptian, roman, Indian and persian texts into arab and improved upon such knowledge, the Caliphs began to literally hunt down knowledge outside of the Quran. It got to the point that, over the 3 centuries of conquest in India, the muslims burned to the ground the largest library of the entire Hindu world. When they asked the Caliph what to do with the library and the tomes in it, he said "Is this knowledge present in the Quran? If it is, we dont need, burn it. If it is not in the Quran, it's Haram (sinful), burn it".

Fundamentalism caused the massive decline of the islamic world, and this is why Im being so emphatic in having a group of islamic zealots (which could be the Taftani repurposed to that end), playing a role similar but different to that of the Gabrielites, and those zealots would 100% become enemies of the more enlightned and tolerant Ahl I Batin.

This, curiously, would once again make the Batini look similar to the Celestial Chorus (in their relation with the Gabrielites)

[Ramnesis]

I don't think that an extremist muslim faction should follow the pattern of the [Gabrielites]. The way I pictured it, the divide between the [Gabrielites] and the Chorus/Church is not one between fundamentalists and moderates. The [Gabrielites] were not fundamentalist, they were monomaniacal. They let their fight against the 'enemies of Christianity' eclipse their actual practice of Christianity. That's why they fanned the flames of the Reformation. They were so focused on their crusade that they would throw the entire Christian world into chaos to keep pursuing it.

This divide isn't meant to separate Christianity from its worst excesses (though there is some historical precedent for that too) but to play into the [Gabrielites] eventual fate. In the end they jettisonined their religion but not their mission. Their legacy in the OoR/Technocracy is monster and heretic hunting and not faith.

An extremist Muslim faction that keeps to its faith would be an altogether different entity. That's good, we don't want to retread the same ground. It does lead to false dichotomy though.

It would certainly make sense that if there is a faction of Muslim mages focused more on the mysticism of Islam there might also be one plenty who focused on the legal and fundamental side. However, I don't think it is a natural inevitability that the fundamentalists become extremists. That leaves out much of the very real inbetween area that players may want to explore.

I think the solution, if we use the idea of an extremist faction, is that many of the fundamentalists were pushed into Batini (or the Chorus I suppose) as the extremist faction grew in influence. The Batini may have started out as a Sufist organization but that my not be where they are anymore.

I don't think the Taftani make sense as the extremists. Though they may be primarily muslim in religion I don't think they make sense as an actual Islamic practice.

[Kakost]

I don't think that an extremist muslim faction should follow the pattern of the [Gabrielites]. The way I pictured it, the divide between the [Gabrielites] and the Chorus/Church is not one between fundamentalists and moderates. The [Gabrielites] were not fundamentalist, they were monomaniacal. They let their fight against the 'enemies of Christianity' eclipse their actual practice of Christianity. That's why they fanned the flames of the Reformation. They were so focused on their crusade that they would throw the entire Christian world into chaos to keep pursuing it.

This divide isn't meant to separate Christianity from its worst excesses (though there is some historical precedent for that too) but to play into the [Gabrielites] eventual fate. In the end they jettisonined their religion but not their mission. Their legacy in the OoR/Technocracy is monster and heretic hunting and not faith.

An extremist Muslim faction that keeps to its faith would be an altogether different entity. That's good, we don't want to retread the same ground. It does lead to false dichotomy though.

It would certainly make sense that if there is a faction of Muslim mages focused more on the mysticism of Islam there might also be one plenty who focused on the legal and fundamental side. However, I don't think it is a natural inevitability that the fundamentalists become extremists. That leaves out much of the very real inbetween area that players may want to explore.

I think the solution, if we use the idea of an extremist faction, is that many of the fundamentalists were pushed into Batini (or the Chorus I suppose) as the extremist faction grew in influence. The Batini may have started out as a Sufist organization but that my not be where they are anymore.

I don't think the Taftani make sense as the extremists. Though they may be primarily muslim in religion I don't think they make sense as an actual Islamic practice.

Yeah, I didnt mean for the [Janissaries] to be just like Gabrielites, just to have a similarity. To begin with, this guys would be enemies of the OoR and of the Technocracy and remain muslims until today, unlike the Gabrielites "apostates" who would later on commit the worst sin of all - apostasy, abandoning their God.

So, they are to have similar origins, but very different fates.

About the "Taftani", I only suggested those because the name already exists, and as they are they neither make any sense nor do they hold any purpose (but much of the same could be said about the rest of the Crafts, so there is that). This way they would cease to just be yet another Craft placed there just to be exotic and look cool (which I call the "VtM Bloodlines Disease", lucky Werewolf players that didnt catch that) and they would rather become an organic part of the setting.

But sure, those "new Taftani" would basically just share the name with the old ones

[Ramnesis]

I think the Taftani make sense in the broad strokes. A group of Indopersian sorcerers with ties to a specific genre of folklore works quite well for Mage, and expands the Middle East beyond just Islam. Where they need work is in the details. How did they form? What organization di they have? Are they an organization or just a style of Mage common to the region (like the Verbena would have been if they didn't have to band together)? Why didn't they join the Traditions or the Technocracy?

One possibility that occurs to me is that the reason they didn't join the Traditions is that they joined the Order of Reason. Their most likely origins are probably as a syncretic faction based on the mix of Roman, Persian, and Indian knowledge and folklore. Perhaps they did join, with some of them later leaving as the Order became the Technocracy and focused on more naturalistic elements. Those that left the Technocracy became the Taftani, while those that stayed had a major hand in forming the Electrodyne Engineers.

[Kakost]

I think the Taftani make sense in the broad strokes. A group of Indopersian sorcerers with ties to a specific genre of folklore works quite well for Mage, and expands the Middle East beyond just Islam. Where they need work is in the details. How did they form? What organization di they have? Are they an organization or just a style of Mage common to the region (like the Verbena would have been if they didn't have to band together)? Why didn't they join the Traditions or the Technocracy?

One possibility that occurs to me is that the reason they didn't join the Traditions is that they joined the Order of Reason. Their most likely origins are probably as a syncretic faction based on the mix of Roman, Persian, and Indian knowledge and folklore. Perhaps they did join, with some of them later leaving as the Order became the Technocracy and focused on more naturalistic elements. Those that left the Technocracy became the Taftani, while those that stayed had a major hand in forming the Electrodyne Engineers.

I really liked that

[Ramnesis]

Some questions that might give some insight on what we should try to accomplish in an Akashic rewrite. These are variants of questions I was asking that led to the Chorus rewrite:

1) Are the [Akashics] supposed to be a Tradition for mages of a Buddhist paradigm? Or Taoist? Or Hindu?

2) If so, do they function that way? That is, If I made a devout member of one of those faiths, would he fit?

3) If not (or if only some would), is there a Tradition that would fit such a Mage? Does there need to be? Would that kind of Mage choose a Tradition based on his religion?

The equivalent questions for the Chorus had the answers of yes, no, and yes, but I don't think that's the case here.

What are your thoughts? What should we try to accomplish with the [Akashic] Tradition?

[Dataweaver]

I've heard that in Japan, at least, Buddhism, Taoism, and Shinto have a lot of overlap in terms of those who follow their respective teachings. In fact, my understanding is that Buddhism in particular tends to be very agnostic; its cycle of reincarnation doesn't address whether or not gods exist, and so it can be paired up with many other religions. One fairly extreme example, which I personally can't wrap my head around, is my best friend's father, who claims to be both Buddhist and Christian.

I'm not as familiar with Taoism; but what little I know of it, it appears to be similarly specialized and open: it addresses a very particular area of metaphysics, and says very little outside of that area.

In that regard, I'd say that the Akashayana are supposed to be both Buddhists (in terms of their “reincarnated souls” thing) and Taoists (with the whole Yin, Yang, trigrams, hexagrams, Bagua, and I Ching stuff).

[Astromancer]

Some questions that might give some insight on what we should try to accomplish in an Akashic rewrite. These are variants of questions I was asking that led to the Chorus rewrite:

1) Are the [Akashics] supposed to be a Tradition for mages of a Buddhist paradigm? Or Taoist? Or Hindu?

2) If so, do they function that way? That is, If I made a devout member of one of those faiths, would he fit?

3) If not (or if only some would), is there a Tradition that would fit such a Mage? Does there need to be? Would that kind of Mage choose a Tradition based on his religion?

The equivalent questions for the Chorus had the answers of yes, no, and yes, but I don't think that's the case here.

What are your thoughts? What should we try to accomplish with the [Akashic] Tradition?

To break it down to the simplest statement. The Akashics are meant to be the Eastern Masters in so many pulp novels from the 1920s into the 1960s. They have more to do with Magic and Mystery in Tibet, a proto New Age travel guide, than with anything in actual Asia. The traditions were meant to cover the standard stereotypes and archetypes of the "Wizard" in US pop culture.

As trying to Mage traditions based on real world lore would have required far to many traditions and far to much of the book.

[Michael]

1) Are the [Akashics] supposed to be a Tradition for mages of a Buddhist paradigm? Or Taoist? Or Hindu?

I think their core is a very bare bones Buddhism (like, the none-existence of the self, reality as samsara, and the goal of gaining enlightenment). However, the various internal organisation can add on extra elements, like ideas from Taoism, or Confucianism.

Plus, frankly, the writers can loose that thread sometimes.

2) If so, do they function that way? That is, If I made a devout member of one of those faiths, would he fit?

I don't know; though East Asian religion seems a lot more open to syncretism than Abrahamic religions.

3) If not (or if only some would), is there a Tradition that would fit such a Mage? Does there need to be? Would that kind of Mage choose a Tradition based on his religion?

There's a fair amount of Akashic stuff that should probably be in the Wu Lung. Generally a lot of the Taoist stuff is IMO a bit out of place.

What are your thoughts? What should we try to accomplish with the [Akashic] Tradition?

Personally, I'd ditch Do. Aside from the issue with having the most prominent East Asian Tradition be kung fu wizards, to me it always felt a little forced.

[21C Hermit]

Hmm. If the Order of Hermes are Fantasy Wizards who give nods to West European (and related) traditions and religions, could the Not-Akashics be Wuxia Martial Artists who give nods to East Asian (and related) traditions and religions?

[Kakost]

I've heard that in Japan, at least, Buddhism, Taoism, and Shinto have a lot of overlap in terms of those who follow their respective teachings. In fact, my understanding is that Buddhism in particular tends to be very agnostic; its cycle of reincarnation doesn't address whether or not gods exist, and so it can be paired up with many other religions. One fairly extreme example, which I personally can't wrap my head around, is my best friend's father, who claims to be both Buddhist and Christian.

I'm not as familiar with Taoism; but what little I know of it, it appears to be similarly specialized and open: it addresses a very particular area of metaphysics, and says very little outside of that area.

In that regard, I'd say that the Akashayana are supposed to be both Buddhists (in terms of their “reincarnated souls” thing) and Taoists (with the whole Yin, Yang, trigrams, hexagrams, Bagua, and I Ching stuff).

Yes, Eastern religions are a lot more prone to syncretism than those in the west. Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, all of those have some overlapping and intermingling. Unlike in the West, were Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Paganism are all mutually exclusive.

That being said, I think the way of thinking in the East is much more connected to the culture, with religions becoming adapted to it more than the other way around.

For example, India exported Buddhism to China and Japan, and yes, Buddhism is pretty agnostic, but already in India it got mixed with hinduism. Where Buddhism ignore Gods, some sects of Indian Buddhism still worship Shiva and Bhrama and Vishnu and all others.

In China, not only is Buddhism adapted with Taoism but Buddha even became the Supremme Being at the Celestial Bureaucracy, something that "orthodox" Buddhism would probably consider absurd, since Buddha is supposed to have escaped the cicle to which the Gods too are bound.

In Japan, Shinto has some big influence from Taoism, and Buddhism there takes some influence from both.

However, hinduism does NOT cross into China and Taoism does NOT cross into India, and Shinto doesnt leave Japan.

Japan Korea and China share some common mystic views, but each with their peculiarities, but India is vastly different.

However, I do not see under ANY possible circumstances the existance of a single Tradition that could encompass the entirety of China, Korea and Japan, not even in a million years. Korea doesnt count (sorry Koreans), because they would just be ravaged all the time, but between China and Japan, there would always being Magi closely connected with the mundane government. In China that would mean that the Forbidden City would be a powerful Chapel, and in Japan the Magi would either be servants of the Shogun and Daymios or Shoguns and Daymios themselves. And the japanese and chinese Magi would absolutely HATE each other's guts.

I can see however whatever "Samurai" Magi in Japan quickly joining the Technocracy en masse during the Meiji era, to the point that I firmly believe that anyone caught in the old ways would be exterminated - there was in fact a case of buddhist monks that were slaughtered during a peaceful protest against some of the reforms to "ocidentalize". They were protesting against eating meat, which was forbiden before (the japanese only ate fish). So, not too far fetched.

Therefore we dont really need to worry about a "japanese Tradition". There were none.

And in WW2 they would be part of those rebellious technocrats that got smashed by the rest of the Union, so it's all done.

That basically leaves China, which I think is well represented by the Akashics and the Wu Lung (the "imperial mages"), the second ones being wiped out with the technocrats using the communist revolution of Mao... Leaving just the Akashics.

I do believe however that they (the Akashics) should have a far closer link to Taoism, and the Wu Lung being pragmatic Confucionists.

As for India, it is such a mess that I do think it's better to have the Chakravanti as an unifying view, but I have a strong distaste of the entire "Death Mages" view, I believe it to be almost fundamentally opposite to most hinduistic views, of which I think they should be entirely centered.

Personally, I'd ditch Do. Aside from the issue with having the most prominent East Asian Tradition be kung fu wizards, to me it always felt a little forced.

That's one brilliant idea. All that idea of Kung Fu monks comes from the ideas from Shao-lin Chambara movies, with very little connection to reality, plus the Shaolin were constantly persecuted (from time to time) by imperial forces, and were also a small cult inside of China that never spread throughout the entire nation. And even then, the practice of Kung Fu was introduced in order to exercise the monks, to keep them in shape so that their bodies would not be in such a disregard that it would interfere with their meditation.

So yes, drop the Do (especially because that's a japanese word, which would be something absolutely abhorrent for a chinese tradition). Make the Akashics Taoist monks again.

[Kakost]

Hmm. If the Order of Hermes are Fantasy Wizards who give nods to West European (and related) traditions and religions, could the Not-Akashics be Wuxia Martial Artists who give nods to East Asian (and related) traditions and religions?

The difference is that the Order of Hermes is real - heck, it even exists up to this day, I've even been invited to join them once! But, as the good materialistic technocrat that I am, I obviously refused... And denounced their superstitious asses to the closest amalgam of course.

Anyway, the Order of Hermes was a seclusive sect, but it had a huge impact in medieval society. Basically, european society IN REAL WORLD was secretly divided between the Hermetic and Jewish Cabbalism, with the Hermetics having a view of society heavily influenced by mostly nordic paganism (all the idea of the "three of life" comes from the nordic Yggdrasil, the famous three that connects all 9 realms), and the "Jewish" cabbalism coming from the Talmud (I say "jewish" because it was originally a jewish tradition, but many christians in europe were also Cabbalists).

If you guys think that the cultural WAR is a huge ideological dispute between left and right, is because you didnt see the disputes between the Hermetic and Talmudic traditions.

That medieval Hermeticism would generate the modern Masons and Rosacruxes of modern age, along with plenty of other mystical traditions - heck even all the New Age nonsense about crystals and energies and whatnot comes from that.

Important to know: both the Hermeticists and Talmudians were absolutely elitists.

[21C Hermit]

The difference is that the Order of Hermes is real - heck, it even exists up to this day, I've even been invited to join them once! But, as the good materialistic technocrat that I am, I obviously refused... And denounced their superstitious asses to the closest amalgam of course.

Anyway, the Order of Hermes was a seclusive sect, but it had a huge impact in medieval society. Basically, european society IN REAL WORLD was secretly divided between the Hermetic and Jewish Cabbalism, with the Hermetics having a view of society heavily influenced by mostly nordic paganism (all the idea of the "three of life" comes from the nordic Yggdrasil, the famous three that connects all 9 realms), and the "Jewish" cabbalism coming from the Talmud (I say "jewish" because it was originally a jewish tradition, but many christians in europe were also Cabbalists).

If you guys think that the cultural WAR is a huge ideological dispute between left and right, is because you didnt see the disputes between the Hermetic and Talmudic traditions.

That medieval Hermeticism would generate the modern Masons and Rosacruxes of modern age, along with plenty of other mystical traditions - heck even all the New Age nonsense about crystals and energies and whatnot comes from that.

Important to know: both the Hermeticists and Talmudians were absolutely elitists.

I… don’t think the Order of Hermes as presented is that directly related to Hermeticism IRL as you presume here, and I don’t have much say about what you are talking here about Hermeticism and (pseudo-)Jewish mysticism in Europe, because it contradicts what I already know about them so much that I’m willing to stay silent until I figure things out, so uh, okay?

I’ll just simmer for awhile my ideas for the Lacustrine Covenant Tradition and its Schools, such as the Shaolin.

And as a Korean I’m slightly miffed about the post further above