Alternative Traditions Origins

[Michael]

I like the idea of using the Wu Lung as a sort of Order of Reason style group in China: almost literally, the Wu Lung would be to the Middle Kingdom as the Order of Reason was to Europe. It means downplaying or ignoring the “Elemental Dragons” from Dragons of the East; but frankly, that's not a huge loss. If anything, I'd be inclined to make the Elemental Dragons be a relatively new group, dating no further back than the 19th century and really coming into their own with the communist takeover of China; prior to that, the Wu Lung represented the Chinese establishment.

How about the EDs being to Wu Lung as the Order of Reason is to the Hermetics and the Chorus? Like, the Dragons aren't a million miles away from the Wu Lung ideologically.

Maybe have that split come later, with the 19thC?

[Kakost]

Changing the subject a bit, what about a Dualist "Tradition"? We already have 2 Traditions representing the major monotheistic religions... Sort of... In the form of the Chorus and Batini. Akashaics - Buddhism, Wu Lung - Taoism/Confucionism. Chakravanti - Hindu.

What about Zoroatrisanism? That's probably the most important Dualist ideology that is - no, Taoism is not exactly Dualist, since Taoism believes in a balance between opposite forces, while Zoroastrianism believes in a "good" force and an "evil" force.

I believe it was St Agostin that defined in Catholic doctrine that "evil" would be an "absence of God", and that humans have a "hole in their souls".
For Zoroastrianism, evil is a force to be actively opposed, and that is equal in strenght of good.

It is therefore vastly different from Monotheistic views that share a supremme order above all or triat views such as hinduism or the balance of Taoism, which perceive a "dinamic order" between forces.

Dualism perceives one force that is orderly, opposed by another that is absolutely chaotic and destructive.

This worldview deserves a Tradition of their own.

[Kakost]

How about the EDs being to Wu Lung as the Order of Reason is to the Hermetics and the Chorus? Like, the Dragons aren't a million miles away from the Wu Lung ideologically.

Maybe have that split come later, with the 19thC?

How would that work?

[Dataweaver]

A more general view of the Chakravanti is for them to be the fate mages. They're already a lot like that: the Aided, for instance, aren't death mages; they're based on the geasa of the British druids. The Heirochthonoi (I think that's what they're called) are based on the Fates (Clothos, Lachesis, and Atropos) and on the Chthonic elements of Greek mythology, something they share with the Verbena: just keep in mind that the chthonic elements of Greek mythology deal with a note “earthy” mindset that, yes, includes the Underworld, but also includes springtime: Persephone was a chthonic goddess, and her role was to explain the cycle of the seasons: you get autumn and winter when she's in the Underworld, and you get spring and summer when she's not. Even the Indian Chakravanti are based on maintaining a Wheel of Fate, which includes birth, life, death, and afterlife.

I wouldn't remove necromancy from the [Euthanatoi]; instead, I'd divide the [Euthanatoi] into four broad roles patterned loosely after the four seasons, including “karmic assassins” who end lives that are doomed to bring great pain (Autumn) and necromancers who help the spirits of the dead to move on (Winter); but their ranks should also include seers and oracles who guide people into attaining their best destinies (Summer), and “karmic midwives/matchmakers” who arrange for people with great destinies to be conceived and born (Spring).

[Dataweaver]

How about the EDs being to Wu Lung as the Order of Reason is to the Hermetics and the Chorus? Like, the Dragons aren't a million miles away from the Wu Lung ideologically.

Maybe have that split come later, with the 19thC?

Actually, I'm figuring that the Elemental Dragons are a million miles away from the Wu Lung ideologically. To the extent that mage societies are reflections of real-world trends, I'm figuring that the Elemental Dragons are mostly representative of the Communist takeover of China. As someone else mentioned up thread, that was the first time an “invader” actually changed China instead of being changed by China.

Basically, the Elemental Dragons are what the Guide to the Technocracy says they are: Asian Technocrats, the result of the Order of Reason moving into China and attempting to take over.

[Michael]

How would that work?

In what sense?

It just struck me that the Dragons as portrayed in DotE are very close to the Wu Lung paradigmatically. Their paradigm is basically a modernised Confucianism.

As someone else mentioned up thread, that was the first time an “invader” actually changed China instead of being changed by China.

That doesn't seem quite right then. Like, Dynastic China had already been dead for close to 40 years when the Communists took over.
Also, Communism might not originate in China, but I think a lot of it's expression was still very distinctively Chinese (it couldn't really be otherwise, given that it's being implemented by Chinese people).

[Kakost]

Actually, I'm figuring that the Elemental Dragons are a million miles away from the Wu Lung ideologically. To the extent that mage societies are reflections of real-world trends, I'm figuring that the Elemental Dragons are mostly representative of the Communist takeover of China. As someone else mentioned up thread, that was the first time an “invader” actually changed China instead of being changed by China.

Basically, the Elemental Dragons are what the Guide to the Technocracy says they are: Asian Technocrats, the result of the Order of Reason moving into China and attempting to take over.

In my games, I always put the commies from the USSR and China as a rogue Techno "faction". Imho, the world of the Cold War doesnt make sense otherwise. The NWO is the embodiment of WESTERN governments shadyness, and the Syndicate is the embodiment of western corporatocracy (the other conventions are just basically "extra stuff).

But those make no sense for the comminterm block, particularly the Syndicate. I always felt that the commie block needed it's own "Technocracy".

And yes, the ED are absolutely a fit for the communist takeover of China, guys under heavy influence of external technocratic influence trying to apply it to the environment of the Middle Kingdom

[Gryffon15]

I think the way that it’s portrayed in the past (that different factions of the Technocratic Union did throw their weight behind different paradigms) does make sense albeit it could use fleshing out but I could also see the value add of creating another set of Union spin offs to absorb the paradigms which the Union does not typically include.

Either way, I don’t think it’s necessarily mutually exclusive. I’ve always read the Syndicate as the convention whose focus is the role of economics in bringing humanity to overcome its limits, which can work as a basis for either Capitalist or Communist conceptions. As can the NWO as the convention whose focus is the role of socio-politics in bringing humanity to overcome its limits, which can work as a basis for either a liberal or socialist socio-political paradigm.

[Kakost]

In what sense?

It just struck me that the Dragons as portrayed in DotE are very close to the Wu Lung paradigmatically. Their paradigm is basically a modernised Confucianism.

Actually, Confucianism is only about now getting "back on vogue" in China. At the time of Mao, statues of Confucious were dynamited by the revolutionaries for being a representation of the "old system".

Remember Mao's "Cultural Revolution"? The propaganda was about getting rid of the "4 olds":
Old Ideas;
Old Culture
Old Customs; and
Old Habits

Basically, the revolution threw a nuclear bomb on the ENTIRE chinese heritage and tried to build up from the ashes.

There is NO cultural continuity from the Chinese Empire and the People's republic of China, because the communists blew it all away.

This continuity was only kept in Taiwan, which is the Republic of China, and where they actually kept the ancient traditions alive.

Ideas like Confucianism are being rescued in mainland China only now, as the CCP flirts with nationalism and is appealing to the mythical glorious past as a catalyst for that national pride.

That doesn't seem quite right then. Like, Dynastic China had already been dead for close to 40 years when the Communists took over.
Also, Communism might not originate in China, but I think a lot of it's expression was still very distinctively Chinese (it couldn't really be otherwise, given that it's being implemented by Chinese people).

Yes, Dynastic China was dead for 40 years, but the Republic of China wasnt trying to completely blow away the entire chinese history, they kept the traditions alive, Mao on the other hand tried to do exactly that, following Karl Marx's ideal of the "new socialist men".

The chinese communists really tried to do this. Did they managed to? No, of course not. They did erase a significant part of the chinese heritage, but it's too hard (not to mention too self destructive) to completely erase an entire cultural background, so of course something remained. But the revolutionaries were (and still are) absolutely marxists from beggining to end.


Now, if you wanna say that Confucianism is similar to what the CCP does... Oh well, yes. Socialism is a totalitarian system of government. And what has the chinese empire always has been? Totalitarian.

Socialism is collectivist to the extreme and believes that the State should reign supremme in order to organize society.

Well, Confucionism is pretty much a "religion of the State".

The very reason to why the CCP is flirting with Confucionism is because it is pretty similar to marxism and pretty beneficial to the power of the State.

If Confucionism preached about Anarcho-Capitalism, you can be sure it would be absolutely verbotten.

And lets not forget, the CCP still hammers heavily most religions. Buddhism and Christianism for example still suffer severe persecution in China. And hey, Buddhism is a big chinese cultural tradition in China, and it's still persecuted nevertheless. There's also some MILLIONS of practitioners of a form of meditation who are in concentration camps (I forgot their names, it were a big cult in China with a bunch of mystical stuff).

So no, it's not possible to say that the ED evolved from ANYTHING that was previously chinese in nature (except their nationalities).

[Kakost]

I think the way that it’s portrayed in the past (that different factions of the Technocratic Union did throw their weight behind different paradigms) does make sense albeit it could use fleshing out but I could also see the value add of creating another set of Union spin offs to absorb the paradigms which the Union does not typically include.

Either way, I don’t think it’s necessarily mutually exclusive. I’ve always read the Syndicate as the convention whose focus is the role of economics in bringing humanity to overcome its limits, which can work as a basis for either Capitalist or Communist conceptions. As can the NWO as the convention whose focus is the role of socio-politics in bringing humanity to overcome its limits, which can work as a basis for either a liberal or socialist socio-political paradigm.

I dont disagree with you there, what I do disagree is that having the world divided between 2 blocks that are as opposite to one another as possible, being one capitalist and another communist, would NEVER be possible to exist under the SAME Union of Technocratic Conventions and sharing the vision of ONE world.

The Technocracy is not the type of organization that deals well with "different points of view". And to have those points of view being the LITERAL OPPOSITES of each other, makes no sense.

For this reason, I consider the entire "Cold War" as a "Technocratic Civil War".

Mage 3ed (revised) came with the idea that "the War of Ascension is over, and the Technocracy won".

Well, ok. But... There wasn't really any exceptional event in Real Life happening to justify such a massive change in the game.

So, I consider in my games that 1945 to be the end of the "Ascension War". The Technocracy won.

And in their victory, without any real enemies, they turn on each other.

The "Technocratic Civil War" however begins at 1917 with the socialist revolution in Russia. Rogue Technos rebels purge the "russian White armies", the technos trying to implement a republic in Russia, and are immediately isolated by the rest of the Union.

So in my games, the Cold War is a massive Techno Civil War, and the Traditions try to survive in the shadows of both

[Gryffon15]

I’m more of a mind to agree with Michael here.

One can argue that Marxism is native to Europe and as such would be an ‘invader ideology’ but the same could be argued of the form of Nationalist theory that the Republic of China would adopt; in both cases the philosophies are certainly influenced by the history of their development in the European context but they would also be put into use in forms which were just as influenced by the cultural context of China, how could they not be given that the historical traditions and movements of China would have been felt by the Chinese students of either paradigm.

I’m not as familiar with RoC theoreticians so I can’t speak on that as much, but Mao’s familiarity with historical schools of Chinese philosophy is evident in much of his writings and naturally influenced his formulation of Marxist concepts within the Chinese context.

Heck, this is partially where the phrase associated with the CPC of ‘Socialism with Chinese characteristics’ comes from to begin with.

[Dataweaver]

That's part of why I was suggesting that the Elemental Dragons got their start in the 19th century. I figure that the Republic of China was a result of their early efforts, and the Communist takeover was a “second wave” of Elemental Dragons who felt the time was right to go all in.

And yes, I'm sure they borrowed ideas from Confucianism; but as Kakost pointed out, the People's Republic of China attempted to burn the old system to the ground and start anew. Borrowings from old philosophies exist because what they were trying to do is literally impossible, even for mages.

[Kakost]

I’m more of a mind to agree with Michael here.

One can argue that Marxism is native to Europe and as such would be an ‘invader ideology’ but the same could be argued of the form of Nationalist theory that the Republic of China would adopt; in both cases the philosophies are certainly influenced by the history of their development in the European context but they would also be put into use in forms which were just as influenced by the cultural context of China, how could they not be given that the historical traditions and movements of China would have been felt by the Chinese students of either paradigm.

I’m not as familiar with RoC theoreticians so I can’t speak on that as much, but Mao’s familiarity with historical schools of Chinese philosophy is evident in much of his writings and naturally influenced his formulation of Marxist concepts within the Chinese context.

Heck, this is partially where the phrase associated with the CPC of ‘Socialism with Chinese characteristics’ comes from to begin with.

That does not align with the Cultural Revolution however.

Yes, the idea of the "Republic" of the nationalists was... Somewhat alien. But it's important to remember that although the idea of "Republic" is western, the "Republic of China" was a DICTATORSHIP, Chian Kai-Shek just simply didnt use the title of "Emperor", therefore it wasnt really a break from the old traditions, Taiwan actually only became a democracy very recently in the 1990's (I dont remember the exact year), which means that it remained as a military dictatorship for almost a century before being the modern and free Taiwan we know, and the nationalists didnt forced the population to wear uniforms and change their haircuts like the communists did. If you take the clothes, fashion, even architecture, the nationalists kept it all, while Mao bombed it all into oblivion.

The "Socialism with chinese characteristics" wasnt part of the initial propaganda of the CCP, and it was introduced by Deng Xiaoping, not by Mao. It's when Deng Xiaoping initiated the chinese opening and stated that "it doesnt matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches rats", in relation to adopting some free market options to the economy. That's when the propaganda changed to "socialism with chinese characteristics", who were also called as "Market Socialism", and is more or less the model the CCP adopted ever since (but Xi Jinping now is more and more reverting back to the old days of Mao)

[Kakost]

That's part of why I was suggesting that the Elemental Dragons got their start in the 19th century. I figure that the Republic of China was a result of their early efforts, and the Communist takeover was a “second wave” of Elemental Dragons who felt the time was right to go all in.

And yes, I'm sure they borrowed ideas from Confucianism; but as Kakost pointed out, the People's Republic of China attempted to burn the old system to the ground and start anew. Borrowings from old philosophies exist because what they were trying to do is literally impossible, even for mages.

I like this idea. The Wu Lung would be pretty connected with Emperial rule and the "Celestial Bureaucracy", but the Elemental Dragons overthrow them more or less "Doissetep style" like the masons did with the hermetics long before in Europe, and then a more radical "second wave" of rogue ED join in the civil war, backing up the communists.

And yes, that's exactly it, the marxist idea of burning society to the ground and rebuild from the ashes is pretty much impossible.

Just look at Russia: after almost a century of forced atheism by the soviets, Putin now uses the orthodox church as a weapon of social control. The soviets tried as hard as they could to blow away the "old ways", only for it all not just to survive, but to return even stronger.

The same happened in Japan during the Meiji Era, the entire japanese elite tried to transform the country into England with a Prussian army, only to Bushido to be used as propaganda during WW2, and even after the US FORCED them to become a democracy, they remain very attached to their traditions.

The reason why China even has "socialism with chinese characteristics" is because social engineering doesnt really work.

[Ramnesis]

I would take it one step further. The Wu Lung aren't exactly wallflowers and I don't see them accepting a junior membership to the Order. Indeed, one thought that occurred to me last night is that at a certain point they made a bid for control of the Order and after much struggle were thrown down and out. The Elemental Dragons could be the Technocracy's attempt to fill a much needed vacuum as best they could.

This would also be a much needed reason for the Order to take a hard turn towards the sciences. Between the [Gabrielites] the Wu Lung, and the possible membership of the [Taftani] they start with quite a bit more religious and folkloric elements than the standard Order. Their evolution into the Technocracy is not as clear cut without a little push.