Alternative Traditions Origins

[Dataweaver]

The Elemental Dragons would be to the Middle Kingdom much like the Ivory Tower/New World Order was to Europe: a secular replacement for a former mystical group that was expelled from their ranks.

[Michael]

Actually, Confucianism is only about now getting "back on vogue" in China. At the time of Mao, statues of Confucious were dynamited by the revolutionaries for being a representation of the "old system".

Remember Mao's "Cultural Revolution"? The propaganda was about getting rid of the "4 olds":
Old Ideas;
Old Culture
Old Customs; and
Old Habits

Basically, the revolution threw a nuclear bomb on the ENTIRE chinese heritage and tried to build up from the ashes.

I didn't say Confucianism, I said Chinese.

To clarify, I'm being a little free and loose with Confucianism. Like, there's the practice of reading and thinking with the Confucian texts; then there's a two thousands years of culture that have grown up around it. The former is easy to stop; you just stop reading certain texts. The latter is much harder because it's baked into the very society. Even in attempts to totally reform society, it's very common to reproduce many of the same ideas in new forms. When I say that the Dragons come across as modernised Confucians, I'm referring to this latter idea.

There is NO cultural continuity from the Chinese Empire and the People's republic of China, because the communists blew it all away.

? They clearly didn't destroy it all.

Yes, the idea of the "Republic" of the nationalists was... Somewhat alien. But it's important to remember that although the idea of "Republic" is western, the "Republic of China" was a DICTATORSHIP, Chian Kai-Shek just simply didnt use the title of "Emperor", therefore it wasnt really a break from the old traditions,

I'm not saying the KMT were great, but they were a mass party centred on a modern military structure. To say that there's no difference between that and the Empire is wild.

Just look at Russia: after almost a century of forced atheism by the soviets, Putin now uses the orthodox church as a weapon of social control. The soviets tried as hard as they could to blow away the "old ways", only for it all not just to survive, but to return even stronger.

Again, not saying the modern Russian Orthodox Church is great, but comparing it to it's pre-revolutionary self, and calling it 'stronger' is laughable.

[Ramnesis]

I'm starting on a writeup of the [Akashics] as I think we might have enough. One important question, though, is what to call this new depiction of them. "Akashayana" may have worked when they were centered around an Akashic Record, but that's no longer a universal element of the Tradition.

Separated from modern western interpretations, Akasha tends to mean sky or space. That's not inapplicable, I suppose, though it definitely carries modern baggage. Does anyone know of words, perhaps something pertaining to wisdom or enlightenment, that might work better?

Further lines of thought to explore:

1) Why do the Chakravanti get involved with the Traditions? It doesn't seem like this version of the Order would target them.

2) At this point the Order has the first ideas of subjective reality. It has the first glimmers of the consensus from the [Craftmasons] and the power of mapping from the [Explorators]. What other pieces do they need at this point and who could provide them?

I was playing around with the idea that the Wu Lung might have been the ones to figure out that mystics of one type can be converted to those of another type, but that doesn't seem much like their thing. Given their associations with Heaven, though, they might be acutely aware of how much change in the Umbra changes the world.

3) What are some possible secret events for the world that are not tied into any particular Tradition?

4) What lands and continents might have existed before they were pushed off the map? How about those that were connected?

This would probably be better as its own setting thread, but it would be interesting if until the 1400s the Americas were mostly unreachable even by Mages.

[Kakost]

I didn't say Confucianism, I said Chinese.

To clarify, I'm being a little free and loose with Confucianism. Like, there's the practice of reading and thinking with the Confucian texts; then there's a two thousands years of culture that have grown up around it. The former is easy to stop; you just stop reading certain texts. The latter is much harder because it's baked into the very society. Even in attempts to totally reform society, it's very common to reproduce many of the same ideas in new forms. When I say that the Dragons come across as modernised Confucians, I'm referring to this latter idea.

No, what you suggested is that the chinese revolutionaries were basically "half marxists half chinese traditionalists". The cultural revolution proves you totally wrong in that aspect, and that Mao and his cronies were hardcore marxists that happened to be chinese.

Also, as I demonstrated, the whole "socialism with chinese characteristics" only came after Mao's death, so it is clearly and absolutely wrong that they were trying to adapt chinese culture to marxism - which is what you said that they did.

? They clearly didn't destroy it all.

And as I already explained, the chinese communists tried to blow all 3 millenia of chinese culture, however social engineering cannot just simply erase and remake a culture from tip to toe. They "clearly didnt destroy it all" because they couldnt, not because they didnt try or because they didnt want to.

I'm not saying the KMT were great, but they were a mass party centred on a modern military structure. To say that there's no difference between that and the Empire is wild.

Sure, a military dictatorship is not an hereditarian dynastic monarchy. Ok, that much is true.

What didnt change however is that the ROC remained as an authoritarian state where the citizens had no say on the politics until 1996.

Aside from that, in the ROC, the chinese (Taiwanese) citizens were not forced to change their clothes, their hairstyles and their costumes and the chinese in the PRC who were trying to create the "communist man".

Therefore, the ROC have cultural continuity with empirial China, despite the radical government change based on a western model of government.

Again, not saying the modern Russian Orthodox Church is great, but comparing it to it's pre-revolutionary self, and calling it 'stronger' is laughable.

That's obviously hyperbolic. If I were to say "Catholicism is stronger than ever in Poland!", Im obviously not saying that the Vatican has more influence in Poland now than in the 1600's. That's a Strawman, since my point was obviously that, despite the many attempts from the soviets to erradicate religion in the USSR, as soon as it fell, russians went right back to their orthodox churches, to the point that they now are a major political and cultural power inside of Russia, something that should never occur if their social engineering were successful. And you completely disregarded that point in order to beat up an argument I never made and deflect the conversation.

[Kakost]

I'm starting on a writeup of the [Akashics] as I think we might have enough. One important question, though, is what to call this new depiction of them. "Akashayana" may have worked when they were centered around an Akashic Record, but that's no longer a universal element of the Tradition.

Separated from modern western interpretations, Akasha tends to mean sky or space. That's not inapplicable, I suppose, though it definitely carries modern baggage. Does anyone know of words, perhaps something pertaining to wisdom or enlightenment, that might work better?

" Chinese Mysticism


The term mysticism represents a modern approach to a cultural path rooted in antiquity, and given anthropological considerations it is timeless. Mysticism usually concerns any work, study, or praxis that aims at transcendence (the experiencing "self" moving beyond normal limits) or union with the divine. It was (is) often private or even secret, perhaps involving special teachers. To reflect on the experience requires placing it into everyday language and expression.
Mysticism in Chinese thought and society should neither be reified nor reduced to one cultural path or genre of thought. It resonates with some, if not all, ancient Mediterranean practices to which the Greek word mustikos (from the word muo, to be secret) was applied, as well as with mysticism found among thinkers from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim communities. Chinese society produced its own textual adepts and adherents, both within and outside of religious structures. And there are examples of guarded (in some sense hermetic) pursuits and transmittals of curricula and skills."
.....

https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/chinese-mysticism

You'll probably find what you're looking for in the above link. Maybe something connected to Daoism, I dont know. As a tip, it should be something meaningful but also sound cool.

Further lines of thought to explore:

1) Why do the Chakravanti get involved with the Traditions? It doesn't seem like this version of the Order would target them.

Well, India were colonized by the brits after all.

And if there's one place with high mysticism (and therefore a bunch of reality abominations in need of some good purging) that place is India.

2) At this point the Order has the first ideas of subjective reality. It has the first glimmers of the consensus from the [Craftmasons] and the power of mapping from the [Explorators]. What other pieces do they need at this point and who could provide them?

I was playing around with the idea that the Wu Lung might have been the ones to figure out that mystics of one type can be converted to those of another type, but that doesn't seem much like their thing. Given their associations with Heaven, though, they might be acutely aware of how much change in the Umbra changes the world.

Hmmm... That's actually a SUPERB idea! I loved it! The managers of the Celestial Bureaucracy, being the ones to finally teach the Technocracy how to unlock the keys of Consensus! The greatest secret of the Empire! I loved it!

And it makes perfect sense too! The Wu Lung control the "proto-Consensus" in China - which is why every conquerors of the Middle Kingdom turned into chinese instead of transforming China! It's so perfect!

3) What are some possible secret events for the world that are not tied into any particular Tradition?

I do believe that the Mongol horde deserves some special attention. Given the theory about how their expansion might have been caused by climate changes caused by the eruption of Krakatoa, that certanly deserves some EPIC story. Imagine events linked over thousands of kilometers/miles of distance.

Some "demon", "umbral" or "magic war" taking place on some islands on the Pacific, sending shock waves across the Earth that completely twist the Umbral environment of the central asia steppes, causing "Father Sky" to wake up or whatever and drive mongolian shamans into a frenzied bloodlust, or something like that... This can open possibilities of epic stories that I believe are very poorly explored.

4) What lands and continents might have existed before they were pushed off the map? How about those that were connected?

This would probably be better as its own setting thread, but it would be interesting if until the 1400s the Americas were mostly unreachable even by Mages.

Once upon a time long time ago I started a thread "Was Earth flat before the Order of Reason?" to discuss the extent of Consensus. It may be worth to give it a look

[Ramnesis]

https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/chinese-mysticism

You'll probably find what you're looking for in the above link. Maybe something connected to Daoism, I dont know. As a tip, it should be something meaningful but also sound cool.

There's a lot of potential in there, but I'm not sure if anything is a good word for the entire Tradition group. Likewise I ran across the word "Moksha" which is apparently a word for enlightenment and emancipation across multiple religions, but I don't think it means the same thing in each one. If we go the route of using a meaningful word I'd like to be certain we are using it right.

Well, India were colonized by the brits after all.

And if there's one place with high mysticism (and therefore a bunch of reality abominations in need of some good purging) that place is India.

The Order we've described doesn't have a strong drive to wipe out mysticism. Not yet. Many of the Conventions would even be considered mystical (by the others, if not themselves). At the start, their main goal seems to be stability.

The Chakravanti aren't, as far as I can tell, a threat to that goal. It's not clear that the Order would care about them yet unless one of the Conventions had a preexisting grudge. The best options by proximity are the Wu Lung, the [Celestial Masters], and the [Taftani] (if they join).

[Kakost]

The Order we've described doesn't have a strong drive to wipe out mysticism. Not yet. Many of the Conventions would even be considered mystical (by the others, if not themselves). At the start, their main goal seems to be stability.

The Chakravanti aren't, as far as I can tell, a threat to that goal. It's not clear that the Order would care about them yet unless one of the Conventions had a preexisting grudge. The best options by proximity are the Wu Lung, the [Celestial Masters], and the [Taftani] (if they join).

Oh yes, I was thinking more century 19th / transition to the Technoboys. When things start to get serious. Perhaps after stealing or trading the secrets to the keys of Consensus with the Wu Lung, that's when the Order goes the "screw this, now Im gonna cure this world with fire" and does the final transition becoming the evolved pokemon Technocracy.

From that point, I would find it hard to have ANYBODY not joining the Trads.

[Ramnesis]

Oh yes, I was thinking more century 19th / transition to the Technoboys. When things start to get serious. Perhaps after stealing or trading the secrets to the keys of Consensus with the Wu Lung, that's when the Order goes the "screw this, now Im gonna cure this world with fire" and does the final transition becoming the evolved pokemon Technocracy.

From that point, I would find it hard to have ANYBODY not joining the Trads.

That's more what I was thinking. Yet that means there's not much reason for them to attack the Chakravanti for quite some time. The two alternatives I can think of are the Chakravanti stay out of the fight for a century, or they join for ideological rather than survival reasons.

[Ramnesis]

Updated: The [Akashics]

The Problem:

The [Akashics] suffer from a similar problem to the Chorus. They are a Tradition tied into real religions but instead represented by the Theosophical Society. The Akashic Records themselves are an idea from Theosophy. They also have a secret enlightened origin, so much like the Chorus they are depicted as closer to the truth than the cultures they take inspiration from. I don’t know if the Mt Meru backstory conflicts with real faiths and philosophies as much as the Chorus’ does, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

The Goal:

• Keep the monastic and ascetic aesthetics
• Allow for the warrior monk aesthetic for those who want it.
• Make it possible to play a practicing Buddhist, Sikh, Taoist, or Hindu member of the Tradition

The Rewrite:

The [Akashics] were in no way a unified Tradition, but instead a general approach across Asia that was caught in the path of the nascent Order of Reason. They were and are seekers of enlightenment through perfection of the mind, body, spirit.

Tied into the hidden kingdoms of the world, though mostly by proximity. Many orders of the [Akashics] preferred the remote places of the world, and often ran across these hidden places as they sought them.

Some event cracked open the ways across Asia, not just to the hidden human kingdoms but to human adjacent ones (djinn, kinnara, oni, etc). They went from being almost myth to being rumor and hearsay. These peoples and kingdoms revealed themselves further because of the Mongol Conquest, first as they joined in resisting the invasion then later as the Mongol roads and communications networks connected them.

Meanwhile, the Mongol Yuan dynasty suppressed Taoism in China and severely weakened Wu Lung for a time. The less reclusive [Akashic] orders took advantage of this to expand their reach in China. In doing so they earned the enmity of the Wu Lung.

In the 1400s cartographers from the [Explorators] pushed into Persia, India, and Tibet to try to smooth out travel make trade safer. Initially, they only sought to push dangerous and difficult areas to the periphery; that they could push them out entirely was an accidental discovery. Unfortunately for them, people tend to take the disruption of their homes unkindly and many areas grew “dangerous and difficult.” They found themselves “forced” to take extreme measures more often.

The remote [Akashics] of those areas were rarely directly targeted but were in danger of being pushed out of the world regardless. Meanwhile the Wu Lung took advantage of the rise of the Ming Dynasty to try to push the [Akashics] out of China. On the back foot, many [Akashics] started joining the nascent Traditions.

The Secret History:

Some event, perhaps the Samalas eruption, cracked open the ways to a myriad of hidden places across Asia. By the time of the 1400s the entire continent was populated by various peoples and kingdoms (see Marco Polo’s accounts of strange people across Asia). This doesn’t have to be a new thing, but the places in question should be vulnerable.
The Invasion likely brought a whole host of figures out of Tengrism with them as well.

Changes:

The Akashics are no longer unified by an established Akashic Record. Some groups within the Tradition may claim access to one and many may spend time digging into their past incarnations for wisdom, but that isn’t a universal. Without the Akashic Record, the [Akashics] really need another name.

More than most of the other Traditions the [Akashics] are not a structured group but a collection of smaller Traditions that happen to have a lot of crossover and a broadly similar goal.

[Kakost]

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2013/05/13/climate-and-conquest-how-did-genghis-khan-rise/

It appears that an abnormal heat at the beggining of the 13th century allowed the mongolians to greatly multiply their livestock, which in turn allowed them to not only feed well their own population, but also to manage to keep big stocks of horses - to the point that each mongol warrior could keep up to 5 or more horses each, something unthinkable to pretty much anybody else.

This would pave the way for the mongol horde to conquer half of the world.

But just as mother Earth gives, it takes away.

Shortly after it seems that the eruption of the Samala vulcano brought colder temperatures, which caused famines worldwide and brought instability to the mongol empire, which would eventually lead to its downfall.

This entire story is like an epic fairytale, ripe for the taking of those wanting to delve into it. For a game that talks about wizards and magic spirits, I think nothing can be more magic than exploring the rise of the tengri horse riders, (almost) literally riding on the magic of the Earth itself. Vulcanos erupt somewhere unrelated, and the children of "Father Sky" stomp the mightiest civilizations of the world (christendom, islamic and chinese civilizations), and then another vulcano erupts, and it all goes away as dust in the wind.

I was thinking, ALL of this could come from a ritual from Polynesian shamans, thousands upon thousands of kilometers away from Karakorum, with a powerful Shaman erupting a Vulcano on an isolated Pacific island. For what purpose?

Who knows. Maybe he was a seer, an Oracle, who got a glimpse of the future.

What did he see? Who knows. But maybe he saw the Tengri Father Sky, a powerful being from a distant and strang land, who sired a powerful scion that would shake the fondations of the Earth. The scion's name was the great Khan.

But Father Sky couldnt unleash his powerful progeny into the world, for his powers were bound into the land, and so the Polynesian Shaman decides to use the same powers that Teka once threatened to use to consume the world. The Shaman knew that even thou the Gods of the islands were also bound into the endless ocean, unleashing the powers of Teka would manage to break all barriers.

But why? Why did he do it? Well, maybe he saw a glimpse of hope in the form of several groups coming from the lands conquered by the spawn of the Father Sky... A name... "Akashics"... That's all that the seer heard whispered by the Ocean... It was not much, and as always, the voice of the Ocean is always hard to understand by human ears, but it was his best shot, he had to try it, even knowing how the other Gods of the islands would try to stop him, but he had to do something, before the visages of the floating islands of smoke and the stone birds that spit fire coming from the winds of the west came to pass... All that he knew was that this Khan would be the one that would bring those Akashic shamans together to guide their peoples against the monsters of the west beyond the endless Ocean, and he would do all he could in pursuit of his visions.

Now, as I have a soft spot for self fulfilling prophesies, all that remains in this story to make it absolutely perfect is to cause the arise of the Order of Reason to be caused by the mongol invasions over Europe and voilá, that's some Greek tragedy epic shit level.

[Kakost]

Oohhh... I have something even better... Maybe the Polynesian Shaman saw the great Khan, the spawn of the Brutal Father Sky from the strange land without an Ocean, maybe he saw that the great Khan could destroy the "people's that navigate on floating islands of smoke from the West", maybe the Shaman thought that this Khan guy could crush them - and he was probably right, but when the island Gods found out that he stole Teka's fire and broke the balance of the world, a magic war erupted between the Polynesian tribes, a war that would culminate in the destruction of the Shaman, and as he and his tribesmen fought over their last island, the magic battle causes the eruption of the Samala vulcano, sending yet another shockwave, but this time crippling Father Sky on Karakorum, and with that he loses his grip on the lands conquered by his scion, causing famines and plagues.

Oh, and again of course, the europeans survivors of the Great Horde will then rally up to form the Order of Reason, all for the sake of turning our so far nameless Shaman into a tragic hero

[Ramnesis]

I just thought of one way the Chakravanti could be involved: They could have started as allies to one or more of the Conventions. We're already positing that several Conventions were trying to stabilize the ways through India and Tibet. The Chakravanti could have lent their aid to that effort but cut ties as the [Explorators] methods grew nastier. Or perhaps they even stayed to counsel restraint, but left when it became apparent that wasn't going to happen.