Nephandic Ascension: Buddhist Monk; What if the Nephandi are right?

[Kakost]

So, for many years I have thought about the Nephandic philosophies (dont worry, I haven't sold my soul yet), and one thing that most people agree is that evil for evil's sake is rather silly, except if you some sort of cosmic force that simply cannot avoid it (like gravity).

In the case of the dreaded Nephandi, the center of their philosophy is Nihilism. The idea that there is no purpose in existance. There's also Hedonism, but that's the consequence of their nihilism rather than a central dogma of their belief system.

There is, however, one philosophical/religious group in real life that has nihilistic ideas as the main pillar dogma of their doctrines: "orthodox" Buddhism.

In the buddhism as professed by Siddhartha Gautama, aka the "historic Buddha" (as opposed to many other denominations that came after), existance is suffering, and what's more, it's an eternal cicle of suffering. Life, Death, Reencarnation, and suffering.

In this view of Buddhism, Gods are ignored. Original Buddhism was "agnostic", as in, it didnt professed the existence of any Gods, but it didnt rejected them either. Gods were just simply irrelevant for the process of Enlightenment.

By the way, for the original Buddhism, even if God(s) were to be real, they are also trapped in the same cicle of suffering. Even thou living as a God must feel like partying everyday in Paradise, even eternity must come to an end - and when that happens, the Gods will suffer even more than any other being, because they will at least once inevitably have to face Death, and because they are so unprepared for it, it would be an even greater suffering for them.

The purpose of Buddhism is to become "Enlightened", and with that, reach Nirvana (I guess I know exactly from where the writers of Mage got the idea of "Ascension").

However, people in the West have the wrong idea of what "Nirvana" is, and even other branches of Buddhism distorted the message from Siddhartha Gautama.

Nirvana is NOT Paradise. Nirvana is cutting oneself from the eternal cicle of life-death-rebirth and suffering. Becoming "Enlightened" means being able to see and recognize the cicle, and then cutting oneself from it.

In other others: it means DISSOLUTION. The complete dissolution of the Ego into... Nothingness.

And now, back to our favorite bad guys: the Nephandi.

Now, must Nephandi, consumed by their Nihilism, become utterly Hedonistic.

However...

I've made a Buddhist Monk who is a Nephandi. And no, he's not a fake. He's a true adherent to Buddhism. And he's not an Hedonist.

In fact, he wants to bring the absolute destruction of everything... Out of compassion. To free all existence from the cruel cicle of senseless and purposeless suffering.

He doesnt torture or torment others or indulge in vices, because what he wants is to truthfully free everybody from the suffering with no purpose that is existing.

Now, what do you guys think? Is Ascension the final dissolution of the Ego - with is no different from becoming "One with the Universe". After all, once you become a part of everything, you actually becomes... Nothing. All the parts that made "you" to be you, all that you were is gone.

Could Ascension be the dissolution of the Self?

And in that case... Doesnt that mean that the Nephandi were right all along, and are the only truly sane ones?

Does Ascension and "Descension" meet each other at the final stage?

[Astromancer]

Firesign Theater was right "Dig a deep enough hole and everyone will want to jump in." Nihilism doesn't need ritual and sacrifice the Nephandi desperately do. The Nephandi need Nihilism as a mask to cover their selfish appetites.

[Leliel]

Yeah. Honestly, the kind of person who would turn Nephandi out of genuine compassion...is one the Caul would instantly destroy. Because they are obviously driven by a capacity that prevents you from embracing the worst aspects of your own negation for power.

Universal Descent one possible form of the Black Diamond, but really, most Nephandi who even reach the point where they can seriously contemplate their apogee are after the Consummation of Leviathan - the world will still be there, they just get to rule it.

Still, it is worth considering that Nirvana is, in a sense, voluntary annihilation - the complete loss of illusion there is a self. Something a wise Awakened Buddhist might need to be self-aware of, that the Caul seems like a shortcut - and that leads to hubris.

[Kakost]

So, would you say that the Nephandi are, perhaps, right about the final destination, but wrong about the path?

Do they too fall short to the measurement and end up trapped the in same web of illusions that both sleepers and awakened are trapped in?

Also, would the final stage of Ascension, Transcendence, Nirvana or whatever would you wanna call it, be it, self annihilation, the final dissolution? True... Death?

If it were, then the path of screams of the Nephandi suddenly becomes so much more understandable. I can totally understand surrendering to despair if this is it.

And, do Nephandi are truly this 1 dimensional? Cant they have anything more in store for them? Are they in it just for power for power's sake in the middle of their despair? Couldnt they however embrace nihilism fully, somewhat like the Spectres from Wraith the Oblivion do, and be more like the Captain of the sinking vessel that has resigned himself to his fate? I mean, sure, I can totally understand that madmen laughing at the world ending and are just in for the fireworks, but cant there be more to it?

I want to do an exercise on the very nature of evil here, more than just looking at the results of it.

[Kakost]

So, what you guys are saying is, that the Nephandi may talk big game about undoing this theater of madmen to stop the madness of existing, but in actuality what they truly want is to rule in Hell, is that it? That is also another interesting take, Im not gonna lie. But... It seems off to me. I always saw Nephandi kind like Spectres of the living kind...

[Dataweaver]

The Nephandi might be right about the final destination, or they might be wrong about that (only those who have Ascended know for sure — or don't, if the Buddhist idea of Nirvana as you present it is right); but they're very definitely wrong about how to get there.

And the Nephandi as presented in Book of the Fallen haven't succumbed to despair. The common thread in all of the Paradigms described isnt nihilism; it's sociopathy, with the best of them not caring about the pain they inflict on others and the worst of them actively delighting in it.

If you want a “heroic” Nephandus, I'd look to shows like Dexter for inspiration: the Nephandus strictly limits who he subjects to his cruelty, and perhaps sees himself as an avenging angel who metes out poetic justice to punish the wicked. As long as he doesn't slip up and punish the wrong person, which is very easy for him to do.

[Furoan]

As Dataweaver said, like some Nephandi might have gone made from cosmic despair, but that's not universal, and the core tenant seems to be sociopathy rather than despair, a thing that is not helped by the progression through their personal descent. Just being an 'Evil' mage doesn't make you Nephandi, there are particular things you need to do...and they generally don't 'do' compassion.

[Kakost]

Well yes, while being a psychopath is an easy way to understand someone who doesn't care at all about anybody else, that also doesnt mean you are automatically a serial killer.

I was thinking, back to the Buddhist Monk, he could want to destroy all out of "compassion"... But that could just be the result of being totally devoided of empathy. "Dont be afraid child, Im killing you for your own good... You'll be better this way". But deep down, he does it without feeling any kind of guilty or remorse - perhaps even enjoying it. Like a true psychopath, meanwhile rationalizing it as "compassion" for himself and others. Would that be possible?

[Ramnesis]

It's certainly possible. He might also feel the remorse but for whatever reason feel no need act on it. A lot of Nephandi seem to show real remorse and compassion right up to the point that they slip the knife in. That is usually interpreted to mean that the regret was an act, but it might be quite real but somehow irrelevant. Or it could be real but overwhelmed by an even greater skewed compassion inflicted by his inversion.

There are lots of possibilities.

[Aleph]

Aye, like one could have an excess of empathy towards "the world", made seem as a sort of weird "compassion". Involving oneself with the world always has to bring up some karma, which usually leads to pain. Empathy could imply that one suffers the pain of others. Exaggetated to the point where you want to carry "the world" whole suffering over your shoulders (a show of hubris), no wonder it would end bringing up pain.

Maybe the Inverted Avatar focuses "the pain of the world" over the fallen monk's 5 aggregates, with the intent of making the idea to inflict smaller pains within the "noble" goal to end all of it seem acceptable ("smaller pains" being pretty much anything imaginable, since the world it's always going to be bigger).

NVM that it's a downward spiral of horror, the mage ultimately inflicting pain, assuming karma, and getting further from any true freedom.

[Asmodai]

I feel that you are also horribly misrepresenting what Buddhism is about. Nihilism is not what Buddhism ascribes to, Nihilist values are directly against the moral codes that Siddhartha espoused. Yes, life is suffering, but that does not mean morality and kindness are empty exercises. The goal of Buddhism is to master oneself and avoid excess allowing you to lessen your own karmic burden and the burden you bring upon others. The core tenets are inherently centered on yourself and your conduct towards others.

Your concept for a specific Nephandi who claims to be a Buddhist and operates like this is valid, but that doesn't mean he is actually acting towards Samsara, he's just got a very complicated explanation for why he is making everyone suffer. Because that's the point of the Nephandi, everyone must suffer because of the Nephandus and his desires.

Nirvana is supposed to be about losing the illusion of self and shedding the suffering of an endless cycle of rebirth. That might be Ascension, then again it might not. Descension is about being the most selfish and cruel thing in the cosmos. So no, I don't see any way of those two things being the same, except in the mind of a crazed Magus fueled by the "enlightenment" of the Cauls.

[21C Hermit]

This… makes about as much sense as a Christian Nephandus claiming that suborning all humans’ free will unto Satan is doing God’s work.

Which is what a Nephandus would say and believe in, but it hardly has to do anything with true Christian faith, unless I’m seriously missing something.

And I see that Asmodai above already explained it

[Aleph]

Yeah.

Interestingly "Buddhism it's nihilism" it's a posture that was taken by the opponents of buddhist faith even in India - I think they used to call Buddhists something akin to "worshippers of nothingness". Nedless to say, this was (and is) slander ... but understandably effective slander

My limited understanding of these matters it's that the "illusion of the self" doesn't mean as much that that there's "nothing" where you see a self, but rather that there's the aggregates, which are accidental and impermanent, that one perceives as a single entity because they happen to be together - and once you remove all of these stuff, there's "nothing" that subsides as an essence (or soul) that you could call a "you"

And that, if one wants to compare with an occidental belief, more than with Nihilism this could be compared to the anty-substancialism that one can see on the likes of Hegel or Heidegger

[Kakost]

I feel that you are also horribly misrepresenting what Buddhism is about. Nihilism is not what Buddhism ascribes to, Nihilist values are directly against the moral codes that Siddhartha espoused. Yes, life is suffering, but that does not mean morality and kindness are empty exercises. The goal of Buddhism is to master oneself and avoid excess allowing you to lessen your own karmic burden and the burden you bring upon others. The core tenets are inherently centered on yourself and your conduct towards others.

Your concept for a specific Nephandi who claims to be a Buddhist and operates like this is valid, but that doesn't mean he is actually acting towards Samsara, he's just got a very complicated explanation for why he is making everyone suffer. Because that's the point of the Nephandi, everyone must suffer because of the Nephandus and his desires.

Nirvana is supposed to be about losing the illusion of self and shedding the suffering of an endless cycle of rebirth. That might be Ascension, then again it might not. Descension is about being the most selfish and cruel thing in the cosmos. So no, I don't see any way of those two things being the same, except in the mind of a crazed Magus fueled by the "enlightenment" of the Cauls.

Oh yes, absolutely, I was oversimplifying things for easy of understand. Absolutely, compassion is a core precept of Buddhism.

And that was the idea behind this concept. This is most obviously NOT true Buddhism; this is Descent, after all, so it's obvious that it is a corrupted and skewed view on the Buddhist Enlightment.

I just wanted something more than just "lets be a holes" and something that could come in an organic way from a deturpation of paths of Enlightment.

You know, like the cliche tale of "old master with anxious/proud student, student turns evil", upon which the student believes himself to overcome his master and to have unlocked the secret truths/powers the master kept hidden from him, and "now I see the truth" and whatnot.

It's a path of damnation brought by pure hubris, and the more the student follows it, the more he lose himself in his corruption.

Have you ever played "Knights of the Old Republic"? It's an old Star Wars RPG game that details the origin of the Sith, and that for the first time gives the Sith a true philosophical ideology other than just "we be evil".

The Jedi are a good example of Buddhist-like fictional group - the inspiration from Buddhism to create them is clearly obvious.

Their Sith counterpart on the other hand, are different. And the closer thing of their philosophy is the Nietzschean wan, the Ubersmench (the infamous one for reasons we all know), and his idea of "will-to-power" (interestingly, the Dark Lord Sauron from Lord of the Rings is the same critique on Nietzsche).

Now, instead of this approach, I was thinking on a corrupted and distorted version of a viable path of wisdom, hence the idea of the "zealot Buddhist".

By the way, now that I thought... I may have hit a better mark than I initially planned. I'll explain...

You see, there was a dictator, from Central America I believe, I just dont remember exactly which country...

Anyway, the guy was a Buddhist and believed in reencarnation.

He was a maniac (like all dictators), and he said that it was more sinful to kill an ant than a person, because a person will Reencarnate (thus no harm is done), while the ant would done (thus killing it would be a permanent damage).

See, there goes my Buddhist Nefandi (a version of, not exactly the one I was thinking but hey, there is precedent).

I just have to search this guy's name

[Kakost]

I also like the idea that maybe this universe (not our real one, the game universe) is a Lovecraftian horror theater. Hey, maybe there's no Garden of Eden or the Elysium Fields by the end of the rainbow; maybe all there is on the final ladder is a monstrous beast with a mocking laughter waiting to deliver final oblivion and endless madness to the fools that held to false hopes. Who knows? Maybe the Tellurian is a cosmic mockery designed to inflict nedless suffering in its unsuspecting denizens, and there is no ultimate grand purpose after all, it's all just an illusion created to protect the ones living in it from the utter despair that is the truth.

In this case, maybe the Technocracy is right, and ignorance, TRULY is a blessing. Because false hope is the only thing keeping chaos and madness away, so maybe "amputating" the wonder of the world may be for the best.

Or maybe, the best way to live this live is the Nefandi way. Maybe it's all just a farse, maybe your moral codes are just a result of your fear and weakness.

Fear to accept the truth, the truth that there is no purpose in this existance. No overarching meaning for everything, no great plan, no nothing. Just one eternal night awaiting at the end of all things, and even worse of all, it's not even malignant, it's completely indifferent. Because if it even were malignant, it would indicate that your existance held SOME meaning, even an evil one. But not even that.

And your weakness, because you lack the necessary strenght to accept the truth and fully embrace it, and to let go of all the bonds that keep you tied up; only by having the strenght to let go, will you ever be truly free - free from your useless and senseless morals, free of your empty world connections in this world.

This world has no purpose and makes no sense, and the only sensible way to live in such a world is without rules.

Now everybody remember, our reunions are every Saturday from 1 pm to 4:30 pm and from 5 pm to 9 pm, next Saturday we will discuss "your inner Nefandi" and in the next week we will promote readings of the Malleus Nefandorum, and if any of you want to participate to the group excursion to the Caul next month, remember that it's 75 dollars per person and that each one has to bring their own food since there'll be no stops. And next month dont forget that we want each one of you to bring a friend, and tell them that we are recruiting souls!