Countermagick

[Herr Meister]

I should point out, countermagic itself is not an optional rule, only the other three are. Also, countermagic is only "all or nothing" when the spell itself is. If the spell can function in some capacity at the successes it is reduced to, it does. A five success fireball (12 damage) that gets reduced by 2 successes becomes a 3 success fireball (8 damage).



I just did a quick spreadsheet for this. Voormas is Arete 7. Bob, Cob, and Dobby take on Voormas in his Sanctum (difficulty 6 fireballs). Voormas throws a fireball at Bob. Bob countermagics. Cob and Dobby countermagic if they can.

Voormas will fail to get any successes around 10% of the time. On average he does ~7.2 damage (which includes the misses).



If Bob, Cob, and Dobby are Arete 2. Bob will remove ~0.7 successes on average, which amounts to a ~1.5 reduction in damage. Voormas' fireball will now fizzle ~20% of the time.

Bob has to contend with an average of 5.62 damage.

If Cob and Dobby can also countermagic, then the three of them can remove ~1.8 successes, which amounts to a ~3.6 reduction in damage. Voormas' fireball will now fizzle ~40% of the time.

Bob only has to contend with an average of 3.6 damage. All three used a full round action.



If Bob, Cob, and Dobby are Arete 3. Bob will remove 1 success on average, which amounts to a ~2.1 reduction in damage. Voormas' fireball will now fizzle ~25% of the time.

Bob has to contend with an average 5 damage.

If Cob and Dobby can also countermagic, then the three of them can remove ~2.6 successes, which amounts to a ~4.6 reduction in damage. Voormas' fireball will now fizzle ~55% of the time.

Bob only has to contend with an average of 2.7 damage. All three used a full round action.




If Bob, Cob, and Dobby are Arete 4. Bob will remove 1.3 success on average, which amounts to a ~2.6 reduction in damage. Voormas' fireball will now fizzle ~33% of the time.

Bob has to contend with an average 4.4 damage.

If Cob and Dobby can also countermagic, then the three of them can remove ~3.2 successes, which amounts to a ~5.2 reduction in damage. Voormas' fireball will now fizzle ~62% of the time.

Bob only has to contend with an average of 2.2 damage. All three used a full round action.

Thanks for all your effort in writing it down. In any case, you're just proving how ridiculous the rules for countermagick are. If three "nobodies" can basically stop the mightiest mage on the planet, then I think we have a serious problem and it's a problem only mage has by the way. Because you wouldn't see "Bob, Cob and Dobby" doing much against a Karsh/Mithras/Goratrix/Ur-Shulgi, etc, in a vampire game. They would most likely not last half a turn. Countermagick in mage is way too problematic, I prefer to make it very hard in my games, in my games it requires equivalent knowledge to start or, some good understanding of prime and equivalent knowledge in the spell being made (or Prime 5).

[mark]

Thanks for all your effort in writing it down. In any case, you're just proving how ridiculous the rules for countermagick are. If three "nobodies" can basically stop the mightiest mage on the planet, then I think we have a serious problem and it's a problem only mage has by the way. Because you wouldn't see "Bob, Cob and Dobby" doing much against a Karsh/Mithras/Goratrix/Ur-Shulgi, etc, in a vampire game. They would most likely not last half a turn. Countermagick in mage is way too problematic, I prefer to make it very hard in my games, in my games it requires equivalent knowledge to start or, some good understanding of prime and equivalent knowledge in the spell being made (or Prime 5).

I strongly suspect that the reason for the current system is due to how broken magick is. So, they gave the players some easy way of defending with the implicit understanding that the srotyteller should make damn well certain that they don't face anyone with a sphere that they don't have at Rank 1+.
This...kinda works when fighting disciples and adepts but not so much when faced with Magister Mundi Alamantra .
Perhaps one method would be to limit current countermagick to people's who arete is <= your Arete + 1 or something like that with the character intuitively sensing it or whatever.

Because as it stands it works much better with sorcerers who operate on a much more human levels. Sure, 3 average joes may beat a single special forces elite operative.
Archmagi on the other hand are described as demigods in multiple sources. The fluff very much supports that you are not supposed to be taking them heads-on in all but the most unusual circumstances. True the 3 nobodies are unlikely to all have 1 dot in almost every sphere, but its really not impossible.
I suppose one way for a Voormas out of this might be to include random minor effects from various spheres in his fireballs for the sake of loopholing his way out of the mess. After all you need rank 1 in ALL the spheres used on the effect not just the ones that are relevant to your plight. (Or at least this is what the revised rules explicitly said e.g in a mind 3 correspondence 3 attack, technically the first is all you care about, but that does not matter). Unless M20 has a different interpretation?
Even then, its not impossible to run into a group of nobodies who are a nobody in a variety of spheres, so it does not really fix the problem.



I came up with this idea a long time ago, but i kinda forgot about it lol.
Also, there is, if i am not mistaken, a dead magic rote that shows you your opponents affinities (e.g types of disciplines etc) so i guess Voormas might use this? Or process of elimination??

[Ramnesis]

Thanks for all your effort in writing it down. In any case, you're just proving how ridiculous the rules for countermagick are. If three "nobodies" can basically stop the mightiest mage on the planet, then I think we have a serious problem and it's a problem only mage has by the way. Because you wouldn't see "Bob, Cob and Dobby" doing much against a Karsh/Mithras/Goratrix/Ur-Shulgi, etc, in a vampire game. They would most likely not last half a turn. Countermagick in mage is way too problematic, I prefer to make it very hard in my games, in my games it requires equivalent knowledge to start or, some good understanding of prime and equivalent knowledge in the spell being made (or Prime 5).

That's not what I would take out of it, though. This isn't Voormas playing to his strengths, this is Voormas using a basic spell over and over again. It's purely testing countermagic vs fast casting while only considering Arete.

I ran this using the Voormas from book of Chantries (Arete 7, rather than the 9 from Ascension), without modifying any difficulties, and he still has an 25% chance of vaporizing Bob through the countermagic of three Arete 2 mages (assuming Bob can't soak fire). That only drops to 11.5% if it is three Arete 4 mages. And it shoots back up to 40% if Vormas is using dropped foci and spending quintessence (and it only costs him 1 or 2 quintessence to get the -3 difficulty max).

If we do allow Bob, Cobb, and Dobby to spend quintessence on countermagic, Voormas will only vaporize Bob 6% of the time and his spell will fizzle 75% of the time, but they have to be Avatar 2 or 3 and it costs them 6 to 9 quintessence (depending on dropped foci) and all three of their actions to muster that defense for a single turn. Meanwhile Voormas has only used 1 or 2 quintessence and he's listed as having 19 (24 in his Ascension writup). Unless they walked in filled to the very brim with quintessence, he will easily win a war of attrition.

This is a Voormas not at his highest and using a basic spell with no preparation. If he has a prepared spell waiting for his trigger (very likely since he is a Master of Time) they have to overcome much, much more.

[Herr Meister]

Well, I still see the scenario as problematic, especially because we're talking about starting characters and a very powerful one. I sincerely don't like the fact you can countermagick with just a basic understanding of the Spheres.

[Ramnesis]

Arete 4 mages are significantly stronger than starting characters. Also this is a test of Voormas yawning and absentmindedly lobbing a fireball vs three weaker characters putting everything they have into stopping him. Do you want the numbers if V can gather a couple of rolls together in an extended cast?

[Herr Meister]

Arete 4 mages are significantly stronger than starting characters. Also this is a test of Voormas yawning and absentmindedly lobbing a fireball vs three weaker characters putting everything they have into stopping him. Do you want the numbers if V can gather a couple of rolls together in an extended cast?

Yes, I'd like to see those. One of the main problems I see is that Countermagick is a free action and that's why I try to limit it as much as possible, especially regarding a situation I see as not making much sense in theory, as it's hard for me to buy the idea that you can counter someone's spell when you don't even understand what they are doing and only have a basic understanding of the spheres being used.

[Ramnesis]

Oh no, its not a free action in M20. Countermagic and Protective Countermagic are full actions. That's why I counted Bob, Cobb, and Dobby spending their full turns as part of the cost.

Now if Voormas gets a bit of warning he can start casting his spell before Bob, Cobb, and Dobby enter the room. My numbers are going to be slightly off on this because my spreadsheet is not set up to increase the difficulty if Voormas fails a roll, but that only happens ~3% of the time. I'll use the stats for each I used last time: Voormas against three Arete 4 mages who can dump at least 3 quintessence into their countermagic. We can assume they've each dropped a relevant focus).

If V gets two rolls, he vaporizes Bob around 60% of the time though his spell will fizzle 14% of the time. He does, on average 9.9 damage. He spends 2-4 quintessence (depending on if he has a personal foci), Bob spends 2 quintessence, Cobb and Dobby spend 3 each.

If V gets three rolls, he vaporizes Bob around 94% of the time and his spell will only fizzle 2% of the time. He does, on average 18.4 damage so if we use the optional splitting successes rules, he could quite easily use two of his successes to target Cobb and Dobby and still average around 14.4 damage to all three. He spends 3-6 quintessence (depending on if he has a personal foci), Bob spends 4 quintessence, Cobb and Dobby spend 3 each and they all die screaming.

[Herr Meister]

Oh no, its not a free action in M20. Countermagic and Protective Countermagic are full actions. That's why I counted Bob, Cobb, and Dobby spending their full turns as part of the cost.

Oh, I didn't know they changed it. I basically skipped the rules on that book, because I assumed everything was the same. Spending a full action doing it changes things a bit.

[mark]

Arete 4 mages are significantly stronger than starting characters. Also this is a test of Voormas yawning and absentmindedly lobbing a fireball vs three weaker characters putting everything they have into stopping him. Do you want the numbers if V can gather a couple of rolls together in an extended cast?

I think Herr meister's issue was less about the arete 4 (which you are right is not a starting character) and more about the fact that you can do it with just,say, forces 1 prime 1, or life 1 for a heart attack etc.

Concerning them juicing up with quintessence, this is trickier because it depends on how difficult you make it for people to find quint i suppose. If i am not mistaken, Voormas has prime 5 so i think he can draw a few extra from the universe. Still you have a point about the "resource management thing", though i am curious as to what the final result will be if all 3 + Voormas (from book of chantries) are juiced up to 20.
This, assumes no prior preparation, (which admittedly, is a gross injustice to an Arhchmaster, but i am curious about seeing all parameters)

[Herr Meister]

I think Herr meister's issue was less about the arete 4 (which you are right is not a starting character) and more about the fact that you can do it with just,say, forces 1 prime 1, or life 1 for a heart attack etc.

Exactly, I don't see any sense in it and that's why I change it in my games.

[Ramnesis]

I think Herr meister's issue was less about the arete 4 (which you are right is not a starting character) and more about the fact that you can do it with just,say, forces 1 prime 1, or life 1 for a heart attack etc.

Concerning them juicing up with quintessence, this is trickier because it depends on how difficult you make it for people to find quint i suppose. If i am not mistaken, Voormas has prime 5 so i think he can draw a few extra from the universe. Still you have a point about the "resource management thing", though i am curious as to what the final result will be if all 3 + Voormas (from book of chantries) are juiced up to 20.
This, assumes no prior preparation, (which admittedly, is a gross injustice to an Arhchmaster, but i am curious about seeing all parameters)

Well if all four go into this juiced then things depend on how fast they are spending. Lets give them all the reasonable advantages we can.

Voormas, spells are coincidental in his sanctum so they are Highest Sphere +3 difficulty. Prime 2/Forces 3 fireball would be 6 base difficulty (if he had a good source of fire preprepared he could do this with Forces 2 for a 5 base difficulty, but we're ignoring that). At Arete 7 he's dropped most of his foci, so he almost certainly can get a free -1 difficulty for using one of those. Since fireball isn't really his theme, we won't presume he is using an individual or unique foci or the appropriate resonance. No bonuses there. The rest of his modifiers will come from quintessence. That means he can get to difficulty 3 (hitting the -3 difficulty cap) for 2 quintessence per cast. Voormas has something like Avatar 7, so there are no issues with him spending at this level.

Bob, Cobb, and Dobby are using Countermagic, which has a base difficulty of 7. Cobb and Dobby are protecting Bob, so they have a +1 difficulty. At Arete 4 they've all dropped one foci. If we are generous we can assume they can apply this to their countermagic, which gives Bob a free -1 difficulty and counters Cobb and Dobby's penalty. To hit the modifier cap, Bob will have to spend 2 quintessence per counter, and Cobb and Dobby will have to spend 3 per counter. They all must have at least a dot in Forces or Prime, which isn't too unbelievable. Bob must have Avatar 2 and Cobb and Dobby need Avatar 3.

Turn 1, they all start with 20 quintessence. Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Quintessence left: V - 18, B - 18, C - 17, D - 17.

Turn 2, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 1.4, total vaporization chance 6.9%. Quintessence left: V - 16, B - 16, C - 14, D - 14.

Turn 3, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 2.1, total vaporization chance 10.1%. Quintessence left: V - 14, B - 14, C - 11, D - 11. This is the point that Bob usually starts having difficulty penalties, but they don't apply to Arete rolls so there are no changes to this calculation yet.

Turn 4, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 2.8, total vaporization chance 13.3%. Quintessence left: V - 12, B - 12, C - 8, D - 8.

Turn 5, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 3.5, total vaporization chance 16.3%. Quintessence left: V - 10, B - 10, C - 5, D - 5.

Turn 6, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 4.2, total vaporization chance 19.2%. Quintessence left: V - 8, B - 8, C - 2, D - 2. Cobb and Dobby can no longer get the full -3 difficulty.

Turn 7, Voormas does on average 1.15 damage to Bob and has a 5.7% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 5.35, total vaporization chance 23.8%. Quintessence left: V - 6, B - 6, C - 0, D - 0. Cobb and Dobby have no quintessence left.

Turn 8, Voormas does on average 2.4 damage to Bob and has a 15.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 7.75, total vaporization chance 35.7%. Quintessence left: V - 4, B - 4, C - 0, D - 0. At this point the expected status of Bob is incapacitated.

Turn 9*, Cobb is now the primary defender. His difficulty is 6, Dobby's is 7. Voormas does on average 5.5 damage to Cobb and has a 42.5% chance of vaporizing him. Quintessence left: V - 2, B - 0, C - 0, D - 0.

Turn 10*, Voormas does on average 5.5 damage to Cobb and has a 42.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Cobb is 11, total Cobb vaporization chance 66.9%. Quintessence left: V - 0, B - 0, C - NaN, D - 0. Voormas is out of quintessence. The expected status of Cobb is dead.

Turn 11, Dobby is now the primary defender, his difficulty is 6. Voormas is out of quintessence, so his difficulty is 5. Voormas does on average 5.3 damage to Dobby and has a 39.6% chance of vaporizing him. Quintessence left: V - 0, B - NaN, C - NaN, D - 0.

Turn 12, Voormas does on average 5.3 damage to Dobby and has a 39.6% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Dobby is 10.6, total Dobby vaporization chance 63.5%. Quintessence left: V - 0, B - 0, C - NaN, D - NaN. The expected status of Dobby is dead.

*I do not have my spreadsheet set up to give Cobb and Dobby different difficulties, so I averaged the results between their two difficulties. It's not completely accurate but is unlikely to make too much of a difference once the death spiral has started.



Twelve turns may seem like a lot, however Voormas is a time master, so I am imagining him doing this while reading a book and barely looking up. For what it is worth I think three prepared Arete 4 mages should be able to do quite a lot against Voormas if they can get him unprepared, but if everyone pursues this suboptimal strategy the challengers will lose badly.

[Muad'Dib]

Countermagick is tricky. I tend to do reduce success even if you don't out roll the spell.

-other supernaturals have a specific sphere their 'spells' are vulnerable. This rules tends to apply more. to mystic flavoured powers such as Rites and pacts than inherant powers.

Could you please list ( this would be nice ) from where do you have these rules, qualities, and tendencies in regard to these interactions between supernatural beings ?

[mark]

Well if all four go into this juiced then things depend on how fast they are spending. Lets give them all the reasonable advantages we can.

Voormas, spells are coincidental in his sanctum so they are Highest Sphere +3 difficulty. Prime 2/Forces 3 fireball would be 6 base difficulty (if he had a good source of fire preprepared he could do this with Forces 2 for a 5 base difficulty, but we're ignoring that). At Arete 7 he's dropped most of his foci, so he almost certainly can get a free -1 difficulty for using one of those. Since fireball isn't really his theme, we won't presume he is using an individual or unique foci or the appropriate resonance. No bonuses there. The rest of his modifiers will come from quintessence. That means he can get to difficulty 3 (hitting the -3 difficulty cap) for 2 quintessence per cast. Voormas has something like Avatar 7, so there are no issues with him spending at this level.

Bob, Cobb, and Dobby are using Countermagic, which has a base difficulty of 7. Cobb and Dobby are protecting Bob, so they have a +1 difficulty. At Arete 4 they've all dropped one foci. If we are generous we can assume they can apply this to their countermagic, which gives Bob a free -1 difficulty and counters Cobb and Dobby's penalty. To hit the modifier cap, Bob will have to spend 2 quintessence per counter, and Cobb and Dobby will have to spend 3 per counter. They all must have at least a dot in Forces or Prime, which isn't too unbelievable. Bob must have Avatar 2 and Cobb and Dobby need Avatar 3.

Turn 1, they all start with 20 quintessence. Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Quintessence left: V - 18, B - 18, C - 17, D - 17.

Turn 2, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 1.4, total vaporization chance 6.9%. Quintessence left: V - 16, B - 16, C - 14, D - 14.

Turn 3, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 2.1, total vaporization chance 10.1%. Quintessence left: V - 14, B - 14, C - 11, D - 11. This is the point that Bob usually starts having difficulty penalties, but they don't apply to Arete rolls so there are no changes to this calculation yet.

Turn 4, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 2.8, total vaporization chance 13.3%. Quintessence left: V - 12, B - 12, C - 8, D - 8.

Turn 5, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 3.5, total vaporization chance 16.3%. Quintessence left: V - 10, B - 10, C - 5, D - 5.

Turn 6, Voormas does on average 0.7 damage to Bob and has a 3.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 4.2, total vaporization chance 19.2%. Quintessence left: V - 8, B - 8, C - 2, D - 2. Cobb and Dobby can no longer get the full -3 difficulty.

Turn 7, Voormas does on average 1.15 damage to Bob and has a 5.7% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 5.35, total vaporization chance 23.8%. Quintessence left: V - 6, B - 6, C - 0, D - 0. Cobb and Dobby have no quintessence left.

Turn 8, Voormas does on average 2.4 damage to Bob and has a 15.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Bob is 7.75, total vaporization chance 35.7%. Quintessence left: V - 4, B - 4, C - 0, D - 0. At this point the expected status of Bob is incapacitated.

Turn 9*, Cobb is now the primary defender. His difficulty is 6, Dobby's is 7. Voormas does on average 5.5 damage to Cobb and has a 42.5% chance of vaporizing him. Quintessence left: V - 2, B - 0, C - 0, D - 0.

Turn 10*, Voormas does on average 5.5 damage to Cobb and has a 42.5% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Cobb is 11, total Cobb vaporization chance 66.9%. Quintessence left: V - 0, B - 0, C - NaN, D - 0. Voormas is out of quintessence. The expected status of Cobb is dead.

Turn 11, Dobby is now the primary defender, his difficulty is 6. Voormas is out of quintessence, so his difficulty is 5. Voormas does on average 5.3 damage to Dobby and has a 39.6% chance of vaporizing him. Quintessence left: V - 0, B - NaN, C - NaN, D - 0.

Turn 12, Voormas does on average 5.3 damage to Dobby and has a 39.6% chance of vaporizing him. Total expected damage to Dobby is 10.6, total Dobby vaporization chance 63.5%. Quintessence left: V - 0, B - 0, C - NaN, D - NaN. The expected status of Dobby is dead.

*I do not have my spreadsheet set up to give Cobb and Dobby different difficulties, so I averaged the results between their two difficulties. It's not completely accurate but is unlikely to make too much of a difference once the death spiral has started.



Twelve turns may seem like a lot, however Voormas is a time master, so I am imagining him doing this while reading a book and barely looking up. For what it is worth I think three prepared Arete 4 mages should be able to do quite a lot against Voormas if they can get him unprepared, but if everyone pursues this suboptimal strategy the challengers will lose badly.

First, wow, Thanks for the hard work. Did you actually run the equations yourself?

Wouldn't Bob be more focused on attacking, though? I mean, its a hell lot riskier in the short term but its the only way that offers even a remote possibility of surviving the long term( as in, one minute later)

Of course, Voormas is not necessarily going to be found in his Sanctum. Rarely is a mage so lucky. This creates a problem in the sense that he will get like 12 points of Paradox by turn 12 as well as making his default difficulty 7 rather than 6... to say nothing of what happens if the trio is smart enough to,say, bring a random kidnapped sleeper with them lol. lets call him Donnie
Their countermagick will keep being coincidental, but Voormas will be getting 3 paradox per spell + a default difficulty of 8.

Now, the normal response here would have been for him to Teleport away or whatever... and that's where the ease of countermagick becomes game-breaking. He may well die lol

Voormas in particular has a trump card in the form of his avatayara/monstrous form, but what if it was an archmage with slightly different stats for whom this was not an option? I understand that much more so than Vampire, resource management and preparation are of sublime importance in mage, but this seems a bit far fetched in my pov.


I mean lets say i am a 900 year old vampire with 30 dots of disciplines facting 3 Ancilia with 10 each of the same generation as me. Per my estimation, i would have an easier time beating them than Voormas would our trio, assuming that they are not minmaxed
(Ok, admittedly if all 4 of us have time to blood buff then the results might be different, but i would argue that stocking quintessence is easier, relatively speaking, than knowing precisely when to spend blood in preparation of a battle that will happen right *now* )

Not to mention that while i can agree with,say, 3 arete 4 characters being strong, what would happen if it was 6 arete 2 ones instead ?? (Please don't go to the trouble of running the math, i know the results would be a bit similar, but it still seems a bit far fetched

[Ragged Robin]

Could you please list ( this would be nice ) from where do you have these rules, qualities, and tendencies in regard to these interactions between supernatural beings ?

Well...

https://youtu.be/85gFeaz0YYs

[Ramnesis]

First, wow, Thanks for the hard work. Did you actually run the equations yourself?

I use the spreadsheet to generate around 50,000 opposed rolls and take the average results. It tends to be easier to brute force a result that way. The only real calculation was in the expected vaporization chance and there's a trick to that (its far easier to calculate the odds Bob is not vaporized than the odds that he is).

One thing I missed about protective countermagic is that it costs an extra quintessence to use so my previous numbers are wrong. Cobb and Dobby will need to be Avatar 4 and they will run out of quintessence after turn 5. They also need at least 1 in prime, but since Prime is in the spell that doesn't change much.

Adjustment: It looks like Bob is likely dead (not incapacitated) on turn 7, the attack on Cobb plays out the same but starts on turn 8 and ends on turn 9. Voormas will get one difficulty 3 fireball on Dobby which is more than likely lethal.

Wouldn't Bob be more focused on attacking, though? I mean, its a hell lot riskier in the short term but its the only way that offers even a remote possibility of surviving the long term( as in, one minute later)

Of course, Voormas is not necessarily going to be found in his Sanctum. Rarely is a mage so lucky. This creates a problem in the sense that he will get like 12 points of Paradox by turn 12 as well as making his default difficulty 7 rather than 6... to say nothing of what happens if the trio is smart enough to,say, bring a random kidnapped sleeper with them lol. lets call him Donnie
Their countermagick will keep being coincidental, but Voormas will be getting 3 paradox per spell + a default difficulty of 8.

Now, the normal response here would have been for him to Teleport away or whatever... and that's where the ease of countermagick becomes game-breaking. He may well die lol

Paradox is a great balancer. Bob, Cobb, and Dobby should get quite an edge if they can use the threat of it to keep Voormas from bringing his big guns in.

That said, Countermagic functions as a defensive roll. The optional rules on protective countermagic extends that to defending others, but the wording still implies that Bob, Cobb, and Dobby couldn't stop Voormas from casting on himself. Unweaving might work in that scenario, but then they'd have to have at least one dot in every sphere he was using.

Also, once we get into more optimal strategies things get harder to calculate. Given that Voormas is a master Time mage, I think it highly likely he'd have multiple actions in every round and have a few trigger spells available. He might not always get the ideal situation of fighting in his own sanctum, but he will be prepared nonetheless.