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Pillars for the Modern Crafts

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  • Pillars for the Modern Crafts

    The premise behind this hack is the idea that the Spheres were the invention of the Order of Hermes, to serve as a glue to hold the Traditions together. They were also adopted by the Conventions in the early days of the Sorcerer’s Crusade; the idea of the Spheres was something they could get behind, and it made it easier to fight the Traditions when they were fighting on the same battlefield, as it were.

    But in this hack, the Disparates never adopted the Spheres and continue to use DAMage-like Pillars to this day. So: what Pillars would each Craft specialize in? Figure that each craft has four to nine Pillars; Crafts with fewer Pillars also have broader Pillars, but also have more “blind spots” — effects that could be done with a single Sphere that require conjunctional use of Pillars, if they can be done at all.

    Sisters of Hypollyta: the Old Faith’s Seasons (Spring, Summer, autumn, Winter) live on in this Craft.
    Knights Templar: they call upon the Messianic Voices’ Archangels (Mika-El, Gavri-El, Repha-El, Uri-El).
    Children of Knowledge: four Operations (Nigredo, Albedo, Citrinitas, Rubedo).
    Batáa: use a system of Loa/Orisha worship that behaves like the Archangels in some ways and like the Spirit-Talkers’ Totems in other ways.
    Ahl-i-Batin: after they left the Traditions, they started using an expanded version of their original Ubbadan (al-Anbiya, al-Fatihah, al-Hajj, al-Layl; probably others, such as al-Kimiya).
    Lions of Zion: the Sephira (except the highest one, which is their equivalent of a “Tenth Sphere”).
    Taftâni: ???
    Kopa Loei: ??? — possibly the Spirit-Talkers’ Totems (Cheiftain, Trickster, Warrior, Wise One)?
    Wu Lung: ???
    Hollow Ones: adopted the Spheres in their quest to find acceptance among the Traditions; never saw a reason to abandon them. (Unless someone can think of an organizing principle for four or more Hollower Pillars?)
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 06-04-2015, 06:46 PM.

  • #2
    Foundation: Asha (duh)
    Aura: Flamboyance (Applies as a bonus to any roll in which the character is being flashy or "over-the-top", particularly with [what would later be called] Vulgar/Vane magic; applies as a penalty whenever trying to be low-key or subtle)

    Atash (The Essence of Active Energies and Divine Power) (60% Forces, emphasis on active-rather-than-negative energies/manifestation, and 40% Prime, emphasizing channeling/generally re-routing Quintessence, and creating Odyllic forms/enchantments).
    Khemia (Magics of the Body and Material Forms) (35% Life, 70% Matter, and a few dashes of Prime and Forces).
    Qismet (Direction of Fate and Influence over the Weave) (More or less similar to what you posted; roughly 75% Entropy, 15% Time, and 15% Mind)
    Waqafa-Isfrit (Control over Djinn and the Ephemeral Realms) (60% Spirit; 15% Prime; 15% Mind; and dashes of other Spheres for applicability to use over Djinn).

    credit goes to just john forever who wrote them first.

    as for the wu lung ive seen some versions of them. ill try to dig them out.

    the kopa loei and bataa have joined the dreamspeakers so the spirit talkers totems are most appropriate.

    the children of knowledge were a former tradition. that being said primus either alone or in many cases with corona effectively gives you the spirit sphere i think.

    aren't the sephira 10 already? so if they are not using one they have 9 right? not unlike the 9 spheres.. remember the batini and hermetics both use sephira names for their spheres.

    just saw that you wrote that they may have up to 9 pillars. im not sure how that would work out
    Last edited by mark; 03-14-2015, 11:40 PM.


    • #3
      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      Sisters of Hypollyta: the Old Faith’s Seasons (Spring, Summer, autumn, Winter) live on in this Craft.
      Knights Templar: they call upon the Messianic Voices’ Archangels (Mika-El, Gavri-El, Repha-El, Uri-El).
      Children of Knowledge: study the Forma (Anima, Corona, Materia, Primus, Vires; possibly others, such as a Spirit-like Forma).
      Batáa: use a system of Loa/Orisha worship that behaves like the Archangels in some ways and like the Spirit-Talkers’ Totems in other ways.
      Ahl-i-Batin: after they left the Traditions, they started using an expanded version of their original Ubbadan (al-Anbiya, al-Fatihah, al-Hajj, al-Layl; probably others, such as al-Kimiya).
      Lions of Zion: the Sephira (except the highest one, which is their equivalent of a “Tenth Sphere”).
      Taftâni: ???
      Kopa Loei: ??? — possibly the Spirit-Talkers’ Totems (Cheiftain, Trickster, Warrior, Wise One)?
      Wu Lung: ???
      Hollow Ones: have adted the Spheres in their quest to find acceptance among the Traditions. (Unless someone can think of an organizing principle for four or more Hollower Pillars?)
      Sisters: check.
      Templars: about right. They'd have more emphasis on Mika-El and Gavri-El, but pretty much that.
      Children: Meh. I'd have to think that one out a little, as their juju is a step-to-the-left of some Hermetic concepts, but as a quick reference, sure...
      Bataa: Yeah -- they'd have Pillars that would come across, conceptually, as a hybrid, though favoring the Totems in the final accounting.

      Ahl-i-Batin: Not quite so easy on that end; most of Al-Anbiya is lost to them (cross-linked to Ascension, they forswore Entropy, losing much of their ability to guide/direct fate and causalities), as would be a few snippets of Al-Layl. However, adopting Al-Kimiya (or,ironically enough, Khemia from their Taftani "cousins") would reflect a shift in emphasis that would compensate for that (particularly given the renewed emphasis over the past couple of centuries on mystical objects from the Middle East, as well as the physical/oil reserves so coveted there).

      Lions: *somebody* did an overview write-up for their Pillars about 10 years ago... but, alas, as with most stuff from then/the 90's, I lost all that info 2 computers ago. If I were less tired/sleepy, I could probably remember more, but it was a hybrid mash similar in application to the Bataa' mixing, except between the Archangels and the Forma of the OoH.

      Taftani: a couple people have done write-ups for them -- including myself, of which Mark found and posted above a short overview that I posted somewhere, at some point (I know I have a more proper write-up for their Pillars, with delineations/paragraphs for each level... I'll have to look for the right notebook from back then...). There are a couple different ways to go about them, and I can see valid arguments across the board, but I went with the emphasis on overt, physical displays (Atash and Khemia, the latter being a bastardized rendering of Alchemical Magic, though a touch different from its Egyptian counterpart), mental/causality-related, "subtle" magics in one Pillar (Qismet), and the focus of Djinn/spirit control to another (Waqafa-Isfrit). The flip (as somebody else did) is to go with Djinn/Isfrit-dominated magics among the 4 Pillars (making said Pillars come across as more fundamentally elemental -- and, perhaps, harking back to a less-refined, Old Faith-related mindset -- and be represented by the 4 cardinal Isfrit: Dao, Djinn, Efreet, and Marid); however, that just smacks -- to me, at least -- as being a bit too "DnD", when all is said and done. My approach takes a route that nods to both the Old Faith (at least, as it would be in the Middle East, relatively), the Batini (as "mirror-siblings" -- each so opposite to the other, yet springing from some very common origins/"parentage") and other Middle Eastern aspects. (And even then, there's a couple other ways to go about it...)

      Kopa Loei: >takes a long sigh on that one< While you *could* take a more focused approach to them, in the final analysis it is simply easier to use the Totems, and then just tweak bits, here and there. For purists, they'd want something more specific, and I can see that. Still, in most (not all, but most) regards, they are essentially Spirit Talkers, just flavored a little differently from their Euro/North-Asian counterparts as presented in the book. >shrugs<

      Wu Lung: Somebody around here just posted not *too* long ago the write-up they did for them, and while I only went over it cursorily (he did a more full writie-up, rather than just a "paragraph per dot" overview), I remember liking what I read. (There was some debate about specific terms used, and my Chinese conceptualization is very, *very* basic, so I defer to those more knowledgeable than myself in that regard... however, it was still pretty good, and I liked the gist of it, even if a word/term or two could use some "spiffing"...). If one wanted to go the down-'n-dirty route, with less flavor/paradigm-truth, but be commensurately easier to conceptualize and write-up, the Wu-Lung as presented in Ascension/Sorcerers Crusade have, in semi-mirror to the Hermetics, 4 Spheres/Pillars, already: Spirit, Forces, Matter and Life. Tweaking and translating them in a manner similar to the Forma is, as I prefaced, the down-'n-dirty, quick-fix way to tackle it, and it's at least ballpark correct, though it would lack a number of more refined aspects on its face.

      Hollow Ones: Here's the trick with them -- plenty of Hollowers are for all intents and purposes Orphans. That is, harking back to the (wondrously misconceptualized but still fun) 1st Ed. of Mage, they really are an open book. You would make your own personalized set of Pillars for any given Orphan/Hollower, reflecting their unique and separate view of the world and magic. I did, for one of my characters, create a "Hollow One" Foundation/Pillar set, but even when I did it I annotated that it was really to reflect part of the Hollower "feel" and part of her own take on things (or, at least, what she gave credit to, even when she didn't quite believe "x" about "y"). Snapshot overview:

      Foundation: Qualia (in this context, "The Essentialness of Self")
      Aura: Ennui (Applies as a detriment for any social -- or applicable -- rolls where the Hollower is trying to feel uplifted, enthused or invigorated, or is trying to make others feel so; conversely, applies in the mage's favor vs. any roll that seeks to shock or intimidate her...)

      Pillars: The Qualiae (in this context, the Expressions of the Self -- at least as Hollowers experience such...)

      Essentiae: Essences of Entities -- Physical or Ephemeral -- and Primal Energies (This pillar is very neutral -- it can be used positively or negatively, and has no inherent bias... unlike...)

      Maledictum: Cursing and Distorted Truths (... this is a straight-up bad juju Pillar; while it can manifest "positive" outcomes/effects at higher levels, it really is a nasty collection of metaphysical aspects that reflect the more sinister nature lurking in some Hollowers...)

      Nocturna: The Night and Shadow Existences (Not as inherently evil-intended as Maledictum, but still very dark, never-the-less...)

      Sussero: Inspiration and Creativity (Unlike most Hollower magic, this pillar is generally "positive" -- not "good", but of a higher, more potentially beneficial intent/application, for most cases...)


      You know what, even as I'm typing this, I believe I actually have Tanya's workup in a folder somewhere on *this* computer... If I do, I'll post it in another response, fleshing out the above (or, at least, whatever I had typed-up from the old notebooks for last years convention...).

      I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...


      • #4
        here are some more i found . 2 for the wu lung and 1 for the taftani

        "Wu Lung

        Foundation: Ming (Mandate, from Heaven)
        Aura: Authority (modifies anything to do with being official)
        Pillars (Jun Huo, the Arms):
        T'ian - Heaven (Manipulation of Fate and Fortune; Forlog)
        Di - Earth (Manipulation of the Five Elements; Vires)
        Ti - Body (Transformation of the body; Anima)
        Chi - Breath (Manipulation of the spirit; Corona)"

        i would propably add a materia pillar as they are supposed to be very good alchemists.
        then they would need a spirit pillar as this is the most important for them.
        maybe the opposie of the hermetic primus pillar. sth that gives them spirit magic, a good part of prime and the rest with combining oher pillars. in which case corona andmaybe others would have to be modified a bit.

        Foundation: De (Virtue/integrity)
        Pillars: Li (Rites/Correct forms of etiquette)
        - Qi (Harmony and balance of vital forces; healing effects and transformations, some geomancy/Prime)
        - Ren (Humaneness, governs proper behavior and interpersonal relations)
        - Shen (Divinities; governs contact with spirits and calls down good fortune from Heaven.)
        - Wuxing (The five cycles; governs the elements by itself but has broad applications in conjunctional magic)



        Foundation: Truth

        Zaotar subfaction

        Wise One

        Kahin subfaction

        Wise One"

        Hope this helps.

        the last one is,obviously the quick and dirty approach. for instance wise one actually has some healing properties of its own plus anima is not really appropriate for the taftani.

        for the record i believe that (for simplicity's sake as well as to represent the fact that paradigms have expanded in the last 700+ years) most traditions/crafts should have 6 pillars.
        Last edited by mark; 03-15-2015, 02:59 AM.


        • #5
          Okay, cool -- I have at least one of the "stubs" from last years updated notes (it's missing Rotes and some fluff... so this must have been from one of the notebooks from about 12-13 years ago... but anywho...). It's important to note that some levels of various Pillars may seem "stronger", while others cusp slightly behind the curve, with a few spots being dead center; that's the glory of the Pillars: some juju is easier, some is harder, compared to other people's witchy-pooh...


          Qualia: The Essential Essence of (Self)
          2: Aura modifier applies beneficially vs. supernatural effects that would induce fear/apprehension in the character.
          5: All difficulties to alter/change the Hollow One’s Nature or Demeanor default to 10 (if not already higher), regardless of any other modifiers (superseding even the “9 Threshold” rule); similarly, all resonance effects from the Hollower’s spells are at +3 difficulty to alter, delete or excise.

          Aura: Ennui (bonus to resist intimidation/shock; penalty to enthuse/invigorate others… or the mage, himself…)

          Qualiae: The Expressions of [Self]

          Essentiae: Essences of Entities, Physical/Ephemeral Objects, and Primal Energies
          1: Sense the “vibe” of a person, place or object, intuiting emotions, the resonance of a locality, and the intended purpose of a tool/substance (including the nature – though not necessarily quantity – of Quintessence).
          2: Detect more accurately Quintessence, as well as mystical forces and beings (vs. Willpower or appropriate magic; detecting such does not, however, reveal details as interpretation and previous experience are required); penetrate superficial demeanor to know a target’s true nature, which includes piercing disguises and personal/specific illusions; channel Quintessence to charge an item to harm/resist supernatural forces, as well as manifest simple expressions of power (lighting candles, stirring slight breezes, or illuminating one’s eyes – 1 Quintessence per roll/Effect);
          3: Note more directly ephemeral beings/forces, and interact with them w/o the need for intermediary /charged tools; transfer Quintessence to or from a non-resisting target (who need not be expressly willing, but merely non-resistant); wake local ephemeral essences (in the Penumbra, adjacent to the mage’s physical location) and equally rouse or ward the spirit realms (raising or lowering the Gauntlet with a simple, non-hurried spell);
          4: Rend the barrier between worlds, allowing congress between them, as well as wrench the spirit/essences of others (inflicting aggravated damage to physical/ephemeral targets per success scored); drain Quintessence from unwilling targets, and compel spirits to action (w/ an extended, resisted spell);
          5: Manifest power (Quintessence) through oneself (1 Q per success rolled, with 1 Willpower spent per roll via an Unhurried Spell), or by creating a Cray (per the Autumn Pillar); counter directly the spells of others, unweaving even ongoing enchantments (1:1 basis); alter the general Nature and tone of essences – both manifested and still ephemeral – so as to change the resonance of Quintessence or spells, or the Nature of others (though influencing thoughts/actions, in-and-of-themselves, requires other magic, such as Sussero);

          Maledictum: Cursing and Distorted Truths
          1: Speak (or, with a +2 penalty, glare, write, gesture, etc.) in a manner that cows others, as subtly or overtly as the mage chooses (bonus to Intimidation w/ a simple spell); sense when malicious intent is present in a being or their actions, and know a thing to be cursed/hexed, on sight;
          2: Inflict minor woes/tricks of chance on others: jinxing a throw of dice/turn of a roulette, a tickle/cough when another is speaking (resisted w/Willpower), or a fragile/vulnerable object to break or fall; further, one’s verbal venom may be intensified, causing another to not only be cowed, but (if the mage chooses) driven from his vicinity (mental/emotional duress causes the target to have a -1 penalty to active dice pools per success on a simple spell, mitigated by Willpower);
          3: Stronger manifestations of the mage’s displeasure arise: sturdier objects or machines can be damaged, or made to function counter to their intended use, with physical beings likewise harmed (2B/1L damage per success); the mage’s very words and thoughts become layered in double-meanings and occlusive truth, shielding her inner thoughts and thwarting even the “ring of truth” that some others might “hear” (bonus to Subterfuge, as well as deceiving spells/powers that sense/perceive truth); familiar with spite and deception, the character becomes better at ignoring the former while sifting through the latter (bonus to any applicable dice pools to ignore intimidation or similar, or when attempting to discern the truth of a situation);
          4: A target’s fate can be adversely directed, mitigating even pre-destined good fortune (w/ an extended spell, resisted only by magic or the Destiny/Free-Will background; with an ongoing spell, such changes can even be made “permanent”); falsehoods of memory may be woven into the minds of others, with enduring effect created with as little as a single enchantment; perceptions may be altered, as the mind’s hallucinations supersede even supernatural senses (vs. Willpower or resistant magic);
          5: Lies blend as deceptions that evolve into untruths, which in turn become facts: while physicality cannot be conjured from “nowhere”, fate and causality can be threaded to eventually manifest practically any result the mage may give voice to, provided said outcomes are premised on at least some pre-existing truth (via an extended or ongoing spell); the mere implication of displeasure on the character’s part slays mortal men, and gives even paranormal beings pause (2L/IA level of damage per success); a target can be convinced of virtually anything, given time and propaganda/gossip (resisted by Willpower, after a WP is spent);

          Nocturna: The Night and Shadow Existences
          1: Attune to The Night, in body as well as spirit, staying alert while the sun is down (mitigating 1 die of fatigue per success on a simple spell, though penalties resume in force at dawn), knowing supernaturals of the night (vampires, werewolves, wraiths, some mages, etc…), and seeing in darkness as well as hearing in “silence” (noting remote sounds/scents/whatever, beyond the normal range of human senses);
          2: Shadows, chills, and muted sound respond to the mage’s will; with effort, creatures of the night may be beckoned (including paranormal targets) and if of animal/minimal intellect, influenced /directed (w/ an extended spell); those the character sets her attention upon can be drawn to – or lulled by – her darkly seductive mein (bonus to Appearance, and a -1 Difficulty on seduction rolls, per two successes scored on a simple spell);
          3: Vanish into shadows, or when unobserved, by cusping into the Penumbra or descending into the Shadowlands; dim the minds and senses of others, causing them to not note a given being or object (or, with an extended spell, even a building/immediate locality) – this both allows the Hollow one to pursue others with greater efficacy as well as become himself supernaturally elusive (bonus to appropriate dice pools for “shadowing”/tracking another, as well as adding/creating dots in the Arcane background, with a simple spell); feelings of apathy, lethargy, or sleepiness may be created in any being capable of feeling such things;
          4: Call upon the more threatening aspects of The Night, striking fear in others (bonus to Intimidation, as well as weaving supernatural fear resisted by Willpower), giving substance to shadows (summoning dark spirits to assault/harass others, or crafting temporary physical/ephemeral objects w/ a simple spell), and obscuring attacks as they are made (vs. supernatural senses); with foreknowledge, the spells of others may be evaded via a contested spell (though they still persist, as appropriate, and affect other targets normally);
          5: Manifest the deepest of the dark powers, enshrouding the night with myriad obscurements or (w/an extended spell) summoning storms to plague even the day; open the physical realm to the Low Umbra and banish opponents to truly sunless depths; with a extended, contested spell, entities of the night may be controlled outright, directed to the Hollow One’s intent and purpose, from both the physical and ephemeral worlds;

          Sussero: Inspiration and Creativity
          1: Discern creativity and originality in a person, work, or place, including the capacity for (True) Magic(k); intuit understanding of a given thing, not so much by rational conclusion, but by spontaneous comprehension (bonus to Enigmas w/a simple spell);
          2: Communicate, in one way or another, emotions and simple thoughts with others, in a manner so subtle even those with appropriate [A]wareness may not note (opposed via a contested roll vs. telepathic eavesdropping) – this ability extends even to reaching out to others at a distance, calling out to the (night) angels or hearing ghosts who seek to communicate with the living; creativity and imagination may be sparked in both the mage and others (bonus to Expression, Performance, or Craft dice pools with a simple spell per being);
          3: Query the shifts of air and thought, noting events that occur near and far both in the physical and near-umbral worlds (detecting danger, as well as catching visions of the past or potential futures); shape concepts into Ideals, as either “real” embodiments in the Umbrae, or reinforcing existing physical patterns (repairing physical objects or healing/promoting growth in living things, though only with a simple, unhurried spell – 2B/1L/success);
          4: Blend thought and motion into an expressed embodiment (Bonus to Dexterity or Wits; movement may be multiplied by the number of successes scored on a simple spell); make suggestions that others find subtly compelling/persuasive (resisted by Willpower) as well as know a target’s inner thoughts and memories (resisted); call upon the wind of Sussero, either physically (via a simple spell, limited to 100 yards or so, success=strength), or ephemerally (affecting the disembodied, and/or clouding-obscuring telepathic abilities);
          5: Manifest creativity in its purest conceptual forms: matter can be shaped by will alone, and living things may be transformed relative to their natural state (paired with Essentiae: 4, radical changes can be made by combining a spiritual essence/concept with the physical target; material objects may be similarly altered into different states or compositions); ideas and thoughts can be seeded into the minds of large groups and – with both mundane and mystical support – made into schools of thought, potentially influencing entire regions or (sub)cultures (with an extended or ongoing spell);


          Lord... format transfer blew that to hell. Looks better now...

          I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...


          • #6
            Quick notes: I’m not assuming MRev metaplot, which is why I’m listing Crafts that MRev said got folded into various Traditions.

            Just because the are 10 - 1 Sephiroth, that doesn’t mean that they align all that well with the Spheres. Sure, the Hermetics and the Batini make associations; but that doesn’t mean that the associations they make are right. If anyone gets the Sephiroth right, it would be the Lions; Kaballah is very much in their wheelhouse. Alternately, they might have something structurally like Runes, but based on the Hebrew script instead of Nordic script: that is, each Pillar represents a type of letter.

            The Children of Knowledge were once a Tradition. A long time ago, back when the Sorcerer’s Crusade was just getting started. It didn’t last long. Before that, they were part of the Order of Reason; and before that, they were part of the Order of Hermes. If I can have the Batini go back to something akin to their Dark Ages Pillars when they left the Traditions in the twentieth century, I can easily have that Children of Knowledge revert to using Forma close to five centuries earlier. Not that Forma and Spheres are all that different, mind you… Conversely, if you can compose something that fits them better, I won’t object.

            For those who may have missed it, al-Kimiya is the real-world Arabic origin for the modern word “Alchemy”.

            OK; so the Kopa Loei can basically use the Spirit-Talkers’ Totems in much the same way that the Sisters of Hypollyta use the Old Faith’s Seasons. Sounds good.


            • #7
              I threw together some Wu Long pillars for a Three Kingdoms era one-shot - I think that may be what John's talking about up-thread, and Mark's got my short premise. The full pillars and discussion thread are here - including my observations from the game and some debate about terms. I still think the terms used have a bad "feel" in terms of not being a good set of things, but like the Pillar spread and contents. Were I to revise to a different structure, I'd probably follow Create_this's example and have it be the four cardinals, assigning a purview to each, but the "four supernatural icons" structure is already well-represented in the Messianics and Spirit-Talkers.

              We've discussed White Lion/Solificati Pillars before - my sketch was this:
              Foundation: Magnum Opus, maybe? (or "Azoth?") With an "Obsessed" Aura?
              Nigredo (Putrefaction) - Destroy, corrupt, end, or render chaotic; make wounds fester, corrode objects, render the body or mind sickly (or, metaphorically, sow dissent or discord.)
              Albedo (Purification) - Cleanse, correct, purify, or render orderly; make wounds whole, end disease, correct natural order (or, metaphorically, bring peace and harmony)
              Citrinitas (Awakening) - Improve, refine, or distill; make steel into adamant or silver into lunargent, strengthen the body or mind, make a poison or herb more potent, gain or grant perception of the spiritual.
              Rubedo (Realization) - Complete or perfect, or interact with perfected concepts; manipulate Prime/Quintessence, turn refined (via Citrinitas) metals into Primium, convert between material and spiritual, etc.

              (I'm fairly likely to actually give these a full write-out if the White Lion NPC in my Dark Ages game ever needs to have real stats. )

              I had but lost notes for the uncorrupted Wu Nung, but these were never researched and are kind of "referential" (they are more reflective of the WoD's take on myth than proper myth, thus Ku) The 3 Kingdoms era one-shot already took enough labor so I just didn't bother. Also, astute readers will note a problem with the color scheme! Recreating from memory...
              Foundation: Ardor, with a Passionate Aura
              Nu Wa's Cerulean Vault (Blue - The Sky) Governs the arrangement of space, serendipity, water and weather. and division of space and realms, including Umbral travel.
              Fu Xi's Crimson Banners (Red - The Palace) Governs martial pursuits, virtuous behavior, propriety, formal crafts, language and writing, law, Heaven's will, and mental discipline.
              Ku Wang's Yellow Pits (Yellow - The Underworld) Governs the dead, death, and grim fates; overlaps with Entropy (a slight deleterious emphasis) and necromantic Spirit.
              Shennong's Emerald Fields (Green - The Village) Governs healing, health, fertility, small and homespun good fates, small peasant gods (the stove god, etc.)

              I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.


              • #8
                The way this is going Dreamspeakers seem to equal Spirit-Talkers across the board. There really isn't a way to draw a line if you are going to violently shoehorn the Kopa Loei into the Spirit-Talker mode there really aren't ANY traditional groups in the Dreamspeakers who shouldn't be Spirit-Talkers. In which case the Tradition of Dreamspeakers should probably be divided in praxis/paradigm between the "old guard" that are using the Spirit-Talkers (erasing, off course MASSIVE differences between cultures located multiple thousands of miles apart, most of whom have less to do with Totems than, say the Ancient Roman nobilis clans) and the "young bloods" using the Sphere system (the urban shamans type and traditionalists who have bought into the Traditions' "globalist-imperialist magical organizational ideology"). Or have had the vast majority of traditionalist Dreamspeakers be separate Crafts with Foundation/Pillars of their own.

                In any case, the Kopa Loei are going to be a hard one. Polynesian magic and mythology covers almost the entirety of the Pacific and, despite some congruences, what you get in Hawaii is pretty different from what you get on Aotearoa (aka New Zealand) which is very different than what you find in Rapa Nui (Easter Island). It also intergrades into Melanesian magic/mythoolgy on the southwestern margins. As in, those groups arguably more different than the Order of Hermes, the Children of Knowledge and the Lions of Zion (which makes sense when you think about the fact that we're talking about thousands of miles from one side of the Pacific to the other).

                This thread is getting a significant percentage of the way to redoing the WHOLE of the modern world into Fellowships. Just take the next step and start breaking down the Traditions and Conventions and getting Foundations and Pillars for them in the same manner as you are doing for the Crafts. It might even be simpler than it appears. Based on paradigm similarities, there are several groups that aren't amalgams of different sub-groups. The Order of Hermes may be a little different after the instrusion of Renaissance "Hermeticism" and theosophy, but they aren't THAT different from their DA predecessors. Just skew the Pillars and add a few. There are good arguments for the Sons of Ether, Virtual Adepts and, possibly, each of the Conventions having one Foundation/Pillar set per. You will have messes like the Verbena, Euthanatos, etc. to deal with, but that's not much different than the Craft by Craft breakdown you all are already doing.

                Many hands can make light work.

                An aside, I wonder if, in a modern world of mostly or just Fellowships, is the uber-paradigm of magic elastic enough to allow for Orphans? If the fundamentals of magic are so directly tied to each paradigm, it doesn't seem like the Tapestry would "give" to the will of just one individual. Each Fellowship's magic seems like it is creating a small Consensus with enough "gravity" to distort the Tapestry enough to allow their particular version of will-working to function. One person will just wouldn't have the "weight" in terms of sheer power or history to be able to something that requires such scale. Something of groups that make have changed, parted ways, come back together, etc. but have, in essence, ALWAYS been there. ("New" paradigms would have to evolve out of old ones, like the Craftmasons out of the Hermetics.)


                • #9
                  There’s already a thread dedicated to Pillars for the modern Traditions. If the OP of that thread doesn’t object, I’d suggest discussing Conventional Pillars there as well; if not, a separate thread can be started for them. I’d like to keep this thread focused specifically on the Crafts, as the purpose I would like to put this toward is a setting where the Traditions and Technocracy use the Spheres more or less as is (save only for the use of customized Sphere variants where appropriate) while the Disparates use wildly different organizing principles for their magics.


                  • #10
                    Ah, the Wu-Keng get no love. Not in the M20 and not even include in here. How sad.

                    Then again, they are really messed up and weird with the whole demon spousal abuse paradigm.


                    • #11
                      Messed up and weird can be good — but not the way the Wu Keng were. That’s why I skipped them; what would be needed to make them at all palatable would be such a thorough overhaul that they wouldn’t really be the Wu Keng anymore.

                      You know, I can’t believe I overlooked the possibility of the Children of Knowledge having Pillars based on the four stages of the alchemical Magnum Opus. Scrap what I was saying about them using Forma; this is better.