Why are Elder Powers so... awful?

[Newb95]

Frankly, I was always of the opinion that physical disciplines didn't need specific powers for levels over 5, you are already a physical god at that point, like seriously at fortitude 8 you would be functionally unkillable by anything that isn't plot device, potence above 6 means you are killing or incapacitating most beings in a turn, celerity above 5 speaks for itself, the powers (especially the fortitude ones) are a waste of xp in my opinion.

[Aahz]

Zephyr. The idea is really interesting, but as a level 8 power it sucks.

True, Precision and Tireless Tread are also kind of lacklustre, but there are some really strong Celerity disciplines in other books, like Projectile and Flower of Death.

While the ones for the other physical disciplines are even in guides to the high/low clans for the most part pretty weak.

[monteparnas]

I don't think there is any really Celerity Elder Discipline that is not at least decent.
The ones for Potence and Fortitude are mostly either useless or easily replicated with powers of much lower level.

Zephyr. The idea is really interesting, but as a level 8 power it sucks.

[Aahz]

Look at the Elder disciplines in Player's guides to the high/low clans for example, specifically the celerity elder powers. The elder powers for the physical disciplines are Full of crap in later editions, but in Guide to the high clans there isn't a single celerity power that wouldn't be worth taking.

I don't think there is any really Celerity Elder Discipline that is not at least decent.
The ones for Potence and Fortitude are mostly either useless or easily replicated with powers of much lower level.

[Baaldam]

But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.

Any book with a "Dementation/Broken Mirror Wisdom/Can I Play with Madness loresheet" or whatever one wants to call it, if there's need for some thematic glue for what can quite easily be adapted (or ported over from previous editions) into V5, V20 or whichever you prefer as discipline combos or alternate powers? As Monteparnas pointed out, the fact Dementation - or Chimerstry, Obtenebration, Serpentis, Vicissitude or whatever one fancies - as a discipline its own is gone is not a real loss if the powers themselves still exist, though in a somewhat different arrangement.

Less is more, having VtM's past egregious excess of signature disciplines broken down and reinserted as extra options within the "core" ones makes things more dynamic, fluid and unpredictable for PC and NPC creation, all good things imho.

[monteparnas]

But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.

Setting aside that Dementation was a poorly written Discipline to begin with and generally weak, saying that the Discipline is gone forever when it is just represented by another mechanical design isn't the best way to address that you simply dislike this design.

Most of Dementation was just a fluff-heavy but weaker version of select powers from Auspex, Dominate and, arguably, Presence. Given the new open design of Disciplines you can still apply most of the original Dementation flavor to those powers, but actually getting more out of them. Other than that, the only power really unique to it is in V5 Core, pp. 256.

Even the "nerf stick" is arguable, I agree that elders are currently seriously nerfed, but they haven't been the focus yet and otherwise the edition is a mixed bag on this regard, not a consistent weakening by any measure. The bigger changes to "power level" do not affect anything higher than 7º Generation, in a game that never intended for such games being remotely common. Dementation itself is a fine example of a Discipline that is actually overall stronger now than before, as its powers are better defined, most are in the same or a lower level, and Total Insanity, its signature power, dropped all the way from level 5 to frigging level 2. Only The Haunting is truly absent from the Core book.

You're doing a lot of reverse argumentation here. Instead of saying V5 is bad for not having Dementation, you're saying V5 will never have Dementation because it is bad, all the while it actually has it. I don't like how they handled some Disciplines and I hate a lot of the lore, but I won't in good faith deny merit where merit is due or the benefit of the doubt for future products.

[blailton]

That's rather strange. Even not liking everything about its mechanics and almost nothing of its lore, and effectively disliking V5 in general, I did hear a lot of good about its mechanics and actually liked most of what I saw myself. As far as I can tell it needs polishing in many places, but is a better foundation than the old system.



Both valid approaches.

V5 is still lacking an oomph for elder vampires, but generally speaking I prefer to bring things to their lower possible levels, as it makes them more accessible and as such more versatile. But buffing them for their appropriate levels is more than an adequate option, specially for the ones you really want to keep as elder powers at least in that form.


While true, and I also miss those options, I think this must be seen in context.

V5 still has too few books in comparison to any other edition, and a lot of other things it needs to do with them. While there are many valid complaints about it, the number of powers being brought back is, for now, adequate to the publication history.

But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.

[monteparnas]

V5 I have even less interest in due to Paradox's issues but I've heard nothing good about it mechanically

That's rather strange. Even not liking everything about its mechanics and almost nothing of its lore, and effectively disliking V5 in general, I did hear a lot of good about its mechanics and actually liked most of what I saw myself. As far as I can tell it needs polishing in many places, but is a better foundation than the old system.

To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels.

Exactly, and in v20, most powers were actually buffed and polished.

Both valid approaches.

V5 is still lacking an oomph for elder vampires, but generally speaking I prefer to bring things to their lower possible levels, as it makes them more accessible and as such more versatile. But buffing them for their appropriate levels is more than an adequate option, specially for the ones you really want to keep as elder powers at least in that form.

The vastly majority is still out, like anything elder of serpentis, auspex, obfuscate, dementation, Chimestry, etc. Etc. Etc.

V5 didnt moved "a lot" of elders powers to lower level... just a few of them.

While true, and I also miss those options, I think this must be seen in context.

V5 still has too few books in comparison to any other edition, and a lot of other things it needs to do with them. While there are many valid complaints about it, the number of powers being brought back is, for now, adequate to the publication history.

[blailton]

To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels. Rationalize, Mass Manipulation, Shadow Perspective, Animal Succulence, Earthshock, Star Magnetism, Spark of Rage, amongst others were all moved into lower levels.

The vastly majority is still out, like anything elder of serpentis, auspex, obfuscate, dementation, Chimestry, etc. Etc. Etc.

V5 didnt moved "a lot" of elders powers to lower level... just a few of them.

[Herr Meister]

To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels. Rationalize, Mass Manipulation, Shadow Perspective, Animal Succulence, Earthshock, Star Magnetism, Spark of Rage, amongst others were all moved into lower levels.

Exactly, and in v20, most powers were actually buffed and polished.

[SetiteFriend]

Looking back at the trends of the editions with revised closing off the umbra, wto20 nerfing wraiths, and v5's cutback of elder powers almost entirely, it's possible the collection of crap elder powers we got in V20 might be Intentional nerfing on the writers part to reel in the power level of campaigns.

To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels. Rationalize, Mass Manipulation, Shadow Perspective, Animal Succulence, Earthshock, Star Magnetism, Spark of Rage, amongst others were all moved into lower levels.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

Maybe, but this seems to be something that got worse with each edition.

Looking back at the trends of the editions with revised closing off the umbra, wto20 nerfing wraiths, and v5's cutback of elder powers almost entirely, it's possible the collection of crap elder powers we got in V20 might be Intentional nerfing on the writers part to reel in the power level of campaigns.

I mean, that is not exactly surprising. The Storyteller system being bad at the gonzo level was a well discussed topic from 2e till the end.

I don't really count 20th in those discussions as it wasn't originally meant as an edition but a fan send off with cleaned up mechanics, what the individual developers of those books had in mind with cleaned up mechanics is something to ask them directly.

V5 I have even less interest in due to Paradox's issues but I've heard nothing good about it mechanically save in areas where it fixed things where the bar was already set so low(Celerity etc) fixing it was all but a shoe in and not something I'm inclined to pat them on the back for. Even then it's not something I'd compare or consider a continuation of design philosophies with 1e, 2e or Revised as they are games from very different eras of ttrpgs design.

[Herr Meister]

Look at the Elder disciplines in Player's guides to the high/low clans for example, specifically the celerity elder powers. The elder powers for the physical disciplines are Full of crap in later editions, but in Guide to the high clans there isn't a single celerity power that wouldn't be worth taking.

The second edition of Dark Ages is really great (and beautiful) and both guides to high/low clans are great. Still, even in them, we have a(n) (un) fair share of underwhelming powers (and let's not forget, it also nerfs Auspex 8), like Arm of Prometheus, for instance, one of the worst powers ever created in vampire, the fact that it is a level NINE (!!!) power is even more insulting, Repair the Undead Flesh is also very underwhelming for a level 8 power. In general, though, I agree that it is better than most vampire books in terms of powers and the celerity ones are good.

[Prometheas]

A fair chunk of it comes down to the intersection of OWoD never really having all that good of mechanics at the best of times and the Storytelling system not handling the high end scale well at all.

Maybe, but this seems to be something that got worse with each edition.

Looking back at the trends of the editions with revised closing off the umbra, wto20 nerfing wraiths, and v5's cutback of elder powers almost entirely, it's possible the collection of crap elder powers we got in V20 might be Intentional nerfing on the writers part to reel in the power level of campaigns.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

A fair chunk of it comes down to the intersection of OWoD never really having all that good of mechanics at the best of times and the Storytelling system not handling the high end scale well at all.