Why are Elder Powers so... awful?

[Kammerer]

Well the Tremere are clearly using ideas prevalent in the common themepark understanding of infernalism, which in turn uses distorted pagan witchcraft imagery. Back in the times when they were burning witches, people came up with a distorted image of infernalism based on little surviving the bits of what Mage would consider Verbena stuff. The Tremere were created as a hodgepodge of Hermetic imagery, pagan rites, and the themepark infernalism that came from Puritans and the like observing pagan practices and distorting them.

Tremere and Order of Hermes are probably closest to LaVeyan satanism, That included willworking, a hodgepodge of classical western magic, enochian chants with YHVH's name scrubbed and replaced by Satan, and great disdain for every other kind of magical group.

[Aya Tari]

Well, the Puritans were getting their information about pagans and witchcraft third-hand, from Renaissance theologians who 'rediscovered' the threat of paganism and witchcraft in order to explain the series of unfortunate events that ended the Middle Ages. While paganism and witchcraft survived underground during the rule of Christianity, it was also paradoxically shaped by the beliefs that Christians held about pagans and witches. Modern pagan traditions and modern witchcraft have gone through so many reinterpretations that I doubt that they share anything with their predecessors beyond the names of a few deities that they worship, and I doubt that many of them keep to the ancient rituals like animal sacrifice or blood offerings.

[CajunKhan]

And again, all I'm saying is that Mage's Order of Hermes and Vampire's Tremere are ahistorical and are "hermetic" in name only. Hermeticism was developed by christians and was deeply intertwined with christian mythology and religious practices.

Well the Tremere are clearly using ideas prevalent in the common themepark understanding of infernalism, which in turn uses distorted pagan witchcraft imagery. Back in the times when they were burning witches, people came up with a distorted image of infernalism based on little surviving the bits of what Mage would consider Verbena stuff. The Tremere were created as a hodgepodge of Hermetic imagery, pagan rites, and the themepark infernalism that came from Puritans and the like observing pagan practices and distorting them.

[Aahz]

Obtenebration. How can you go from utterly broken to laughably weak? The Darkness Within is a joke of a power. Each turn someone is enveloped they need to roll Stamina (6) and failure means you get a point of their Blood. It's not like you can, I don't know, pin them with your OP Tentacle Powers and drink them dry using your... phangs? Fangs?

You can also use the Level 2 Abyss Ritual Feed The Darknesss (Rites of Blood) so that your Tentacles suck blood. Thats is not only way cheeper to learn, but there is also no way that the victim can resist against the feeding (and seriously a single succsess against Stamina (6) is not that likely to fail) and you actually get all the bllod and not only 50% of it.

[Kammerer]

No, that's a house rule.

[Cadmiumcadamium]

Nit sure if it was a rule back in the day or if it was a houserule my friends used to run, but didn't thaumaturgy have the downside of always acting last in a turn?
If not, i can see this as a valid rule. It takes time to mutter an incantation or doing a gesture, but not as much time to need multiple turns.
The system would be something like this; either everyone rolls for initiative and place their actions as normal in the initiative order, but anyone using blood magic forfeits their initiative and acts last in the turn, except for if he/she has a higher initiative than another blood magician acting in the same fight scene.

Or, a character that is using blood magic has an initiative penalty of 8 minus their Blood Magic rating.

Example:
Vamp 1, initiative 12, physical action
Vamp 2, intiative 16, Blood magic (Thaum 3)
Vamp 3, initiative 10, physical action
vamp 4, initiative 11, Blood magic (Dur an ki 4)

Initiative Order (1st rule): Vamp 1, Vamp 3, Vamp 2, Vamp 4.
Initiative order (2nd rule): Vamp 1, Vamp 2, Vamp 3, Vamp 4.

[11twiggins]

WoD Hermeticism isn't the same as IRL Hermeticism.

[Kammerer]

Alright, would requiring a minimum of one turn of casting per level of effect (or the required time in the description of the effect) make Paths more balanced?

No. This would make Paths useless in combat and be a non-penalty out of combat. VtM combat is extremely unbalanced in favor of the offense and most clans can access a die-no-save power one way or another. If your schtick requries standing in combat and spending actions to power up your kame-hame-ha, then you should find something else to spend that turn on. Because by turn 3 the combat is going to be over.

[Aya Tari]

Alright, would requiring a minimum of one turn of casting per level of effect (or the required time in the description of the effect) make Paths more balanced?

[Kammerer]

Kammerer Okay, so when Eritrus' foundation was laid down by Goratrix literally cutting off his member, as the ultimate symbol of masculine power (an underlying part of House Tremere's paradigm in the WoD), was that some kind of subtle comment on weapons and occult mysticism?

No, that probably symbolizes the authors' desire to be very edgy. To my knowledge castration doesn't feature prominently in historical western magical practices, though I of course welcome evidence to the contrary.
Nethertheless, castration does appear in some religious practices, generally as a way to spiritual purity. For Valesians and Skoptsy it was a necessary rite to abandon earthly lust and the state necessary for entering the kingdom of God. The same goes for a Phrygian/Roman cult of Attis - the Phrygian god Attis castrates a king to guide him to spiritual purity and is castrated in return by the outraged king. The priests of Attis castrated themselves in emulation of Attis, which supposedly gave them prophetic powers.

And again, all I'm saying is that Mage's Order of Hermes and Vampire's Tremere are ahistorical and are "hermetic" in name only. Hermeticism was developed by christians and was deeply intertwined with christian mythology and religious practices.

[11twiggins]

Kammerer Okay, so when Eritrus' foundation was laid down by Goratrix literally cutting off his member, as the ultimate symbol of masculine power (an underlying part of House Tremere's paradigm in the WoD), was that some kind of subtle comment on weapons and occult mysticism?

[Kammerer]

phallic imagery (swords, staffs)

Further on the history of magic, you shouldn't trust feminists and freudists to explain symbolism to you. The wand/staff/scepter does not symbolise a phallus and Queen of England doesn't give a symbolic handjob to her country during the coronation. It's actually much simpler. The scepter/wand/staff is used as a symbol of power because it is a weapon. Weapons represent strength, weapons represent the power to rule and decide fates of others. During the british coronation the Archbishop says the following when presenting the scepter:

Receive the rod of Equity and Mercy. Be so merciful that you be not too remiss; so execute justice that you forget not mercy. Punish the wicked, protect and cherish the just, and lead your people in the way wherein they should go.

The same extends to ceremonial swords. They represent the authority of a magician and power to enforce it.

[Whithers]

First, I agree with many others here that much of the game is more about descriptive feel, the story telling, rather than the mechanics of the system. That emphasis on descriptive play is what keeps the system human rather than just another video game played on paper. But more importantly, I notice the powers with which you seem to have the most criticism are associated with the opposition teams. That is a good thing. This way, our collection of mediocre flawed heroes have a slim chance against their mighty overlords. It was one of the things I learned to appreciate in the MMO Guild Wars. Out of 1300 skills, there were really about 200 good ones, and another 300 great in specific combinations with specific circumstances. The rest were monster fodder. They could be irritating, even occasionally deadly if you weren't prepared for them, but they weren't devastating or game stopping.

It is a good thing when characters aren't always broke, may look poignantly magnificent, and can be successful. They may be headed toward a terrifying and tragic end, but what good is that climax of devastating disappointment in the convulsive grip of final death without a few good days to compare it against? The big bad guys have to suck just a little bit.

[11twiggins]

What does make a 'good discipline' in your eyes? Is it only things that are thematic to Vampires?

It's hard to define, and I have a few systems in mind like "thematic to Vampires" and "Vampire vs. Vampire Wizard" and "supernatural vs. magical", but while these systems all work up to a point things become subjective in each case. I can tell you that Lure of Flames MUST be Blood Magic, since it's an unambiguous case... but what about Reading Minds? Or making supernatural poisons?

I think Blood Magic is a good system for unifying powers which are too niche or odd or un-Vampiric or rare or specific to be Disciplines. I mean Focused Mind could work as a Discipline, sure, and Daimoinon could work as a Path, but those are the grey areas.

[Fadier]

What does make a 'good discipline' in your eyes? Is it only things that are thematic to Vampires?