Why are Elder Powers so... awful?

[11twiggins]

The biggest problem with Thaumaturgy is the meta aspect. The paths reason for existing (past the Path of Blood I think) "Do we have _____? Then make it a path!" Insert telekinesis, pyrokinesis etc.

Some of the paths, like The Green Path, should be disciplines for bloodlines or other groups. Possibly even combination disciplines.

Yeah, it's a bit of a dust-bin thing. I see what you mean. But Flames and Movement wouldn't make good Disciplines IMO, they feel like wizadry.

[Fadier]

The biggest problem with Thaumaturgy is the meta aspect. The paths reason for existing (past the Path of Blood I think) "Do we have _____? Then make it a path!" Insert telekinesis, pyrokinesis etc.

Some of the paths, like The Green Path, should be disciplines for bloodlines or other groups. Possibly even combination disciplines.

[Aahz]

Hunter's Winds are Assassin Magic to make hiding easier, and they work with Obfuscate rather than replacing it.

The 5th level amkes you invisble and is much better in this than Obfuscate imo.

Transitus Velociter doesn't speed you up, it lets you keep pace for a long, long time.

It speeds you up to 30miles per hour.

The paths are not as powerfull as the disciplines (with exception of Hunter's Winds 5) but they are thematically quite similar.

[Aleph]

Having just looked up Voice of the Wild, there's some stuff which leans on Animalism's themes, but it's a Path of Magical powers relating to animals. Yes you can influence an animal's mood, but you can't speak to them or summon them or possess them, they're limited and precise powers.

"limited and precise powers" seem to define Paths more than a supposed esoteric quality that Disciplines can't have.

There could be a Path that allows to speak with animals (just as you can speak with objects with that elementalist path, Elemental Mastery?, I don't remember) and posses them. There's nothing thematically incompatible with blood magick about that. There isn't one because Animalism exists. And if one existed, it probably wouldn't include powers to "control the Beast", nor to feed from animals. Because Paths are supposed to be "limited and precise" (albeit there may be one or two exeptions, Paths are all over the place).

The Path of Shadowcrafting isn't different from any other Path. The only notable thing that it has it's that it commits the sacrilege of being similar to one Discipline, and thus serves as counter of what you said. Appart from that detail it's perfectly fine conceptually and mechanically (or at least I don't remember anything horrifying about it)

The Path (Voice of the Wild) also requires a tonne of ingredients. Lots and lots of ingredients. That pushes it WAY into Blood Magic territory.

Rituals are very much Blood Magic territory. However, Paths usually don't have this kind of restrictions. They tend to be instant powers.

[11twiggins]

But there are Voice of the Wild, The Hunter's Winds and Transitus Velociter that come quite close.

And there is also Path of Shadowcrafting and Soul of the Serpent.

Hunter's Winds are Assassin Magic to make hiding easier, and they work with Obfuscate rather than replacing it. Transitus Velociter doesn't speed you up, it lets you keep pace for a long, long time. Transitus Velociter won't speed up your horse, it will just keep it going for longer than it would normally go and stop anything which would slow it down. TV doesn't let you just decide you gotta go fast, it's a very precise power which is clearly different from Celerity and obviously magical.

Having just looked up Voice of the Wild, there's some stuff which leans on Animalism's themes, but it's a Path of Magical powers relating to animals. Yes you can influence an animal's mood, but you can't speak to them or summon them or possess them, they're limited and precise powers. The Path also requires a tonne of ingredients. Lots and lots of ingredients. That pushes it WAY into Blood Magic territory.

[Aahz]

There is not a Path of Speaking To Animals. There is not a Path of Super Speed.

But there are Voice of the Wild, The Hunter's Winds and Transitus Velociter that come quite close.

And there is also Path of Shadowcrafting and Soul of the Serpent.

[11twiggins]

Right. Just like there would never be a Path with thematic and mechanical overlap with Obteneb...oh wait.

And I literally mentioned that Path earlier (reading comprehension ftw), and that Path is an abhorrence which hasn't been rewritten or updated. Ever. Do Kolduns replace Vicissitude with "Thaumaturgy"? Do Lasombra have Nightshades? Tell me more about the up-to-date material you seek to shoehorn into this discussion...

[BenjCano]

The "Path of Invisibility"? It would never exist since it would be mechanically redundant.

Right. Just like there would never be a Path with thematic and mechanical overlap with Obteneb...oh wait.

[11twiggins]

No, but there's a path of Speaking to Plants . Do you really think a Path of Speaking To Animals would be out of the scope of Thaum if Animalism didn't existed?



I grant you that most Paths aren't like Celerity/Potence/Fortitude in that they don't provide a single power that it's improved when you level up the Path. Still, at this point, most Disciplines aren't like that either.

One exeption it's Movement of the Mind



At this point you still aren't ready to admit that there could be a Path like that?



Daimonion can create fire, and it's a Discipline. A certain high power of Vicissitude that you criticized can do the same.

Daimonion, Obtenebration, Serpentis, Chimestry...there's a load of "magical" Disciplines, that could easily be the inspiration of a Path if they didn't existed. There's not a big conceptual difference between Paths and Disciplines.

Of course, there are differences: Usually Paths are weaker (usually), and they never go past 5. There are at least a few rules that say that blood magic can't be learned without studying occult lore and stuff. That's it.

Vampires in folklore talk to Animals a lot. It would be weird to make talking to animals "vampire wizadry".

The "Path of Invisibility"? It would never exist since it would be mechanically redundant.

Yes, Daimoinon leans on the mystical, as does Bardo. The system isn't 100% consistent. I will say that Daimoinon is most certainly a Discipline as it's secrets stolen by sorcerer kings from Demons in it's V20 writeup, and so it (like Obtenebration and Bardo) might seem a tad mystical but it's still inherent to the Blood; they aren't normal Disciplines, they're weird, but they kind of work as Disciplines so I'd leave them. Daimoinon can make fire, yes, but not all Disciplines are traditional Vampire powers from folklore, it's just a good rule of thumb (gotta go fast is Discipline, talking to ghosts is Magic, mind control is Discipline, summoning objects from thing air is Magic).

Should Daimoinon be the primary Path of so-called "Dark Thaumaturgy"? I could see that, certainly. But all but 2 of the powers feel like Dementation powers, and it feels borderline. Same with Bardo.

Serpentis is transformation powers with a snake theme. It's certainly a Discipline. Same with the others (admittedly to lesser degrees).

[11twiggins]

Re: Path of Invisibility

But there is a level 2 ritual "Donning the Mask of Shadows" which makes you invisible and contests Auspex 3.

And you can't see the difference between a 10 minute ritual where you need to enchant a Mask and simply having Obfuscate? There are Rituals which attempt to capture the potency of Disciplines, yes, because Tremere are greedy power-hungry Bastards. Now if the ritual were "do this ritual, you have Obfuscate 2 now" that would be a load of bullshit, instead we have a ritual with ingredients, a time limit, limitations... I'm annoyed by the false equivalences between powers and rituals. There's a huge difference between "the power that does X" and "the ritual that does X".

[Kammerer]

Re: Path of Invisibility

But there is a level 2 ritual "Donning the Mask of Shadows" which makes you invisible and contests Auspex 3.

[Kammerer]

Oh, and where am I getting this? Well Thaumaturgy is written up in the fluff as being descended from Hermetic Magick, and therefore it is obsessed with the concepts of Willworking, commanding the universe to obey you, and it does so using the concepts of forces being shaped by Willpower alone. To get super technical there is some mathematics, some occult symbolism (specific metals), phallic imagery (swords, staffs)...

Fun story: Hermetic magic as described in Mage is actually about as similar to historic Hermeticism as Akashics are to eastern magic. "willworking" is not a thing. The base of hermetic magic were Alchemy (self-explanatory), Astrology (self-explanatory) and Theurgy (meditative and liturgical practices meant to bring a spiritually pure man closer to God and angels). The better known Enochian magic, created by Dee and Kelley and popularised by the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and Crowley was also largely about contacting angels. It had a lot of math (you use convoluted tables to calculate the name of the angel suited for a specific task), and the magician was using the names of God to command angel. Making the universe obey you would actually be considered blasphemous in most classical western magical systems, because most western magicians whose works survived were monks and christian theurgists.

[Aleph]

And Thaumaturgy is not "all of the above". There is not a Path of Speaking To Animals...

No, but there's a path of Speaking to Plants . Do you really think a Path of Speaking To Animals would be out of the scope of Thaum if Animalism didn't existed?

There is not a Path of Super Speed...

I grant you that most Paths aren't like Celerity/Potence/Fortitude in that they don't provide a single power that it's improved when you level up the Path. Still, at this point, most Disciplines aren't like that either.

One exeption it's Movement of the Mind

There is not a Path of Invisibility.

At this point you still aren't ready to admit that there could be a Path like that?

Thaumaturgy is a series of powers which would feel silly as Disciplines because we don't associate them with Vampires. Can a Vampire create fire? I mean... no? Now a WIZARD Vampire? They can make fire. There is a clear gap between Disciplines and Blood Magic, in themes and mechanics and purpose. Blood Magic is an amalgamation of powers which wouldn't really work as Disciplines.

Daimonion can create fire, and it's a Discipline. A certain high power of Vicissitude that you criticized can do the same.

Daimonion, Obtenebration, Serpentis, Chimestry...there's a load of "magical" Disciplines, that could easily be the inspiration of a Path if they didn't existed. There's not a big conceptual difference between Paths and Disciplines.

Of course, there are differences: Usually Paths are weaker (usually), and they never go past 5. There are at least a few rules that say that blood magic can't be learned without studying occult lore and stuff. That's it.

[BenjCano]

OOC? You can say "I use Movement of the Mind 1 to grab the keys off the desk and pull them into my cell, when the guard is distracted by James screaming.". You aren't an expert on the Occult, you aren't a blood sorcerer, and you aren't required to KNOW the ins and outs of the magic. You can just say "I do X.". And that's okay! Much easier for starting players, certainly. However if you were really getting into it, you could do something along the lines of... "I focus on the Hermetic concept of moving objects. The distance between my hand and the key is a small one... 3 meters? Well my Will outweighs three measly meters of thin air. I focus, and I pull the keys towards me, straight into my hand. I visualise it, and I push that reality into the world."

That's not quite what I mean. In the scene where my newbie Thaumaturge uses MotM to grab the keys...what does she DO in the scene? Does he chant? Wave a wand? Squint at them with an intense look of concentration? Like what would someone looking at her see?

[Kendaan]

I like that idea. For example, Invisible Weapon could be an alternative to Obfuscate 3, Soul Mask and Mind Blank could be alternatives to Obfuscate 5... learning a power for a level you already have (so learning another level 5 power for Obfuscate for example) is only 3x the power's level. You could have a merit called Sanguine Flexibility where learning alternative powers for Disciplines you've mastered is 2x the level value.

This would FINALLY make Disciplines equal to Blood Magic. Toreador would have Toreador-only Presence powers which are rarely known outside the Clan, as would the Setites and the Ventrue and the Brujah. And those variants would change everything, as it would give versatility and inexpensive powers (remember that Paths of Blood Magic are 4x current level) to non-blood-mages.

It would also help people with pacifist concepts or high Humanity concepts avoid powers they can't use or would never use, giving them alternatives which can be a tad niche at times. A Dominate 4 power which is entirely focused on surgically removing the most traumatic and painful details of a subject's memory, under hypnotic suggestion. A Dominate 5 power where you don't have total control, you're piloting and the Mortal (or even Cainite) can take back control easily if they want to.

If this system is implemented it MUST NOT be applied to blood magic. There isn't an alternative power for Path of Blood 4, it's linear magic and you don't get surprise powers, you're already getting rituals and flexibility and cheapness.

I like the idea but x3 or x2 is to cheap, especially if you compare it to Blood Magic.

Let's take the example of a character focused on gathering information:
One focusing Auspex, let's say you want 2 lvl 2 power, it will cost you just (5+6/4xp) to learn a second one

Now let's see on Thaumaturgy
You start with Path of Blood 1, A taste of Blood can be interesting.
Then you want let's say Wooden Tongues from Elemental Mastery lvl 2, you need to up Path of Bloofd to level 3 (5+10xp), then learn Elemental 1 then 2 (7+4xp)


You do have a reduced cost & the addition of rituals (completely under ST control though), so I think level of additional power x4 would be good enough, it's the same price as Thaumaturgy without the hassle of having to learn a new disciplines from scratch.