Why are Elder Powers so... awful?

[BenjCano]

The "Path of Invisibility"? It would never exist since it would be mechanically redundant.

Right. Just like there would never be a Path with thematic and mechanical overlap with Obteneb...oh wait.

[11twiggins]

Right. Just like there would never be a Path with thematic and mechanical overlap with Obteneb...oh wait.

And I literally mentioned that Path earlier (reading comprehension ftw), and that Path is an abhorrence which hasn't been rewritten or updated. Ever. Do Kolduns replace Vicissitude with "Thaumaturgy"? Do Lasombra have Nightshades? Tell me more about the up-to-date material you seek to shoehorn into this discussion...

[Aahz]

There is not a Path of Speaking To Animals. There is not a Path of Super Speed.

But there are Voice of the Wild, The Hunter's Winds and Transitus Velociter that come quite close.

And there is also Path of Shadowcrafting and Soul of the Serpent.

[11twiggins]

But there are Voice of the Wild, The Hunter's Winds and Transitus Velociter that come quite close.

And there is also Path of Shadowcrafting and Soul of the Serpent.

Hunter's Winds are Assassin Magic to make hiding easier, and they work with Obfuscate rather than replacing it. Transitus Velociter doesn't speed you up, it lets you keep pace for a long, long time. Transitus Velociter won't speed up your horse, it will just keep it going for longer than it would normally go and stop anything which would slow it down. TV doesn't let you just decide you gotta go fast, it's a very precise power which is clearly different from Celerity and obviously magical.

Having just looked up Voice of the Wild, there's some stuff which leans on Animalism's themes, but it's a Path of Magical powers relating to animals. Yes you can influence an animal's mood, but you can't speak to them or summon them or possess them, they're limited and precise powers. The Path also requires a tonne of ingredients. Lots and lots of ingredients. That pushes it WAY into Blood Magic territory.

[Aleph]

Having just looked up Voice of the Wild, there's some stuff which leans on Animalism's themes, but it's a Path of Magical powers relating to animals. Yes you can influence an animal's mood, but you can't speak to them or summon them or possess them, they're limited and precise powers.

"limited and precise powers" seem to define Paths more than a supposed esoteric quality that Disciplines can't have.

There could be a Path that allows to speak with animals (just as you can speak with objects with that elementalist path, Elemental Mastery?, I don't remember) and posses them. There's nothing thematically incompatible with blood magick about that. There isn't one because Animalism exists. And if one existed, it probably wouldn't include powers to "control the Beast", nor to feed from animals. Because Paths are supposed to be "limited and precise" (albeit there may be one or two exeptions, Paths are all over the place).

The Path of Shadowcrafting isn't different from any other Path. The only notable thing that it has it's that it commits the sacrilege of being similar to one Discipline, and thus serves as counter of what you said. Appart from that detail it's perfectly fine conceptually and mechanically (or at least I don't remember anything horrifying about it)

The Path (Voice of the Wild) also requires a tonne of ingredients. Lots and lots of ingredients. That pushes it WAY into Blood Magic territory.

Rituals are very much Blood Magic territory. However, Paths usually don't have this kind of restrictions. They tend to be instant powers.

[Aahz]

Hunter's Winds are Assassin Magic to make hiding easier, and they work with Obfuscate rather than replacing it.

The 5th level amkes you invisble and is much better in this than Obfuscate imo.

Transitus Velociter doesn't speed you up, it lets you keep pace for a long, long time.

It speeds you up to 30miles per hour.

The paths are not as powerfull as the disciplines (with exception of Hunter's Winds 5) but they are thematically quite similar.

[Fadier]

The biggest problem with Thaumaturgy is the meta aspect. The paths reason for existing (past the Path of Blood I think) "Do we have _____? Then make it a path!" Insert telekinesis, pyrokinesis etc.

Some of the paths, like The Green Path, should be disciplines for bloodlines or other groups. Possibly even combination disciplines.

[11twiggins]

The biggest problem with Thaumaturgy is the meta aspect. The paths reason for existing (past the Path of Blood I think) "Do we have _____? Then make it a path!" Insert telekinesis, pyrokinesis etc.

Some of the paths, like The Green Path, should be disciplines for bloodlines or other groups. Possibly even combination disciplines.

Yeah, it's a bit of a dust-bin thing. I see what you mean. But Flames and Movement wouldn't make good Disciplines IMO, they feel like wizadry.

[Fadier]

What does make a 'good discipline' in your eyes? Is it only things that are thematic to Vampires?

[11twiggins]

What does make a 'good discipline' in your eyes? Is it only things that are thematic to Vampires?

It's hard to define, and I have a few systems in mind like "thematic to Vampires" and "Vampire vs. Vampire Wizard" and "supernatural vs. magical", but while these systems all work up to a point things become subjective in each case. I can tell you that Lure of Flames MUST be Blood Magic, since it's an unambiguous case... but what about Reading Minds? Or making supernatural poisons?

I think Blood Magic is a good system for unifying powers which are too niche or odd or un-Vampiric or rare or specific to be Disciplines. I mean Focused Mind could work as a Discipline, sure, and Daimoinon could work as a Path, but those are the grey areas.

[Whithers]

First, I agree with many others here that much of the game is more about descriptive feel, the story telling, rather than the mechanics of the system. That emphasis on descriptive play is what keeps the system human rather than just another video game played on paper. But more importantly, I notice the powers with which you seem to have the most criticism are associated with the opposition teams. That is a good thing. This way, our collection of mediocre flawed heroes have a slim chance against their mighty overlords. It was one of the things I learned to appreciate in the MMO Guild Wars. Out of 1300 skills, there were really about 200 good ones, and another 300 great in specific combinations with specific circumstances. The rest were monster fodder. They could be irritating, even occasionally deadly if you weren't prepared for them, but they weren't devastating or game stopping.

It is a good thing when characters aren't always broke, may look poignantly magnificent, and can be successful. They may be headed toward a terrifying and tragic end, but what good is that climax of devastating disappointment in the convulsive grip of final death without a few good days to compare it against? The big bad guys have to suck just a little bit.

[Kammerer]

phallic imagery (swords, staffs)

Further on the history of magic, you shouldn't trust feminists and freudists to explain symbolism to you. The wand/staff/scepter does not symbolise a phallus and Queen of England doesn't give a symbolic handjob to her country during the coronation. It's actually much simpler. The scepter/wand/staff is used as a symbol of power because it is a weapon. Weapons represent strength, weapons represent the power to rule and decide fates of others. During the british coronation the Archbishop says the following when presenting the scepter:

Receive the rod of Equity and Mercy. Be so merciful that you be not too remiss; so execute justice that you forget not mercy. Punish the wicked, protect and cherish the just, and lead your people in the way wherein they should go.

The same extends to ceremonial swords. They represent the authority of a magician and power to enforce it.

[11twiggins]

Kammerer Okay, so when Eritrus' foundation was laid down by Goratrix literally cutting off his member, as the ultimate symbol of masculine power (an underlying part of House Tremere's paradigm in the WoD), was that some kind of subtle comment on weapons and occult mysticism?

[Kammerer]

Kammerer Okay, so when Eritrus' foundation was laid down by Goratrix literally cutting off his member, as the ultimate symbol of masculine power (an underlying part of House Tremere's paradigm in the WoD), was that some kind of subtle comment on weapons and occult mysticism?

No, that probably symbolizes the authors' desire to be very edgy. To my knowledge castration doesn't feature prominently in historical western magical practices, though I of course welcome evidence to the contrary.
Nethertheless, castration does appear in some religious practices, generally as a way to spiritual purity. For Valesians and Skoptsy it was a necessary rite to abandon earthly lust and the state necessary for entering the kingdom of God. The same goes for a Phrygian/Roman cult of Attis - the Phrygian god Attis castrates a king to guide him to spiritual purity and is castrated in return by the outraged king. The priests of Attis castrated themselves in emulation of Attis, which supposedly gave them prophetic powers.

And again, all I'm saying is that Mage's Order of Hermes and Vampire's Tremere are ahistorical and are "hermetic" in name only. Hermeticism was developed by christians and was deeply intertwined with christian mythology and religious practices.

[Aya Tari]

Alright, would requiring a minimum of one turn of casting per level of effect (or the required time in the description of the effect) make Paths more balanced?